AAkasha
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Joined: 11/27/2004
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ORIGINAL: pollux
Thanks for your thoughts everyone, but I think part of my original post has been misunderstood. Here's the piece that seems to give everyone the most heartburn:
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I'd further submit that a man who does display all these admirable vanilla traits of confidence, competence, gregariousness, etc. (what was it you ladies were saying about laundry lists?) is -- by definition -- NOT A SUBMISSIVE.
Re-reading this, it isn't quite what I intended to say, and I apologize for that. Let me try to restate it more succinctly, and clearly:
*IMO*, the psychological conditions that give rise to what most Ladies here would call a submissive man are, unfortunately, also likely to give rise to traits that those same Ladies are going to find very unattractive. Conversely, the traits that a Dominant lady *does* find attractive are very unlikely to result in a male submissive personality.
I'm speaking from the point of view of a dominant who has been in relationships with both submissive and vanilla men. There is a lot of truth to what you are saying; sometimes, I think that femdoms seek something entirely different from what self-identified submissives seek.
But do you see a difference between a man who "has a submissive personality" and a man who "has a desire to submit"? There are men who enjoy submission on a certain level, but are not submissive in their daily life, or in their interactions with women. They are not passive, and they are not just looking for a woman to do all the work from a courting, flirting, sexuality standpoint. There is nothing about them that would make you think they are submissive.
A lot of these men are out in the dating world, getting together with *vanilla* women and bringing out their femdom side. A self confident man with an assertive, self-aware attitude and a great ability to read people tends to find women who may not be "dominant" -- but she's keen on the idea once she gets the drift. He is the type of guy that dates women who are demanding in all areas of their life, are adventurous, have a high appetite for sex and trying new things. I've met a few of these subs, and unlike the usual story you hear of dating woes and inability to ever meet a femdom or any woman for that matter, he has a track record of "getting" women interested in BDSM in his relationships and it takes off for them. And, this is really all they want; they don't want a 24/7 TPE relationship anyway, they want a woman who is their equal, but also is a femdom.
When these types of subs go into the BDSM dating pool they don't have as much trouble because their type is in high demand. They tend to be more selective about their femdom partners, also.
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Let me put it another way, and address my submissive brothers: if we believe and value what our Dominant sisters are telling us, it is our challenge (and a challenge it is) to sublimate our submissive and masochistic tendencies, to reserve them for when a Mistress is desiring to experience them, and in nearly every other situation to accord ourselves as confident, competent, happy-go-lucky nilla beans.
What's amusing to me is that a woman who goes searching for a male submissive acts surprised (and apparently turned off) when she actually finds....a male submissive.
This does not seem like even a remotely controversial thesis, and for evidence you only have to read the posts of the women here....
Is it domination if you let your submissive and masochistic tendencies run the relationship? If a man wants to submit, it seems he must make the effort to get into the head of the femdom he is trying to connect with. Femdoms vary in their styles and desires. For me, it seems like subs tend to think of submission as a series of acts that are to be done; my desire is to dominate a man in a way that bends his will so he puts my pleasure above his, despite discomfort or fear. I get no thrill if a man just submits at the snap of my fingers and becomes a robotic ragdoll for me to order around. But there *are* men that enjoy submission on a level that it must be coerced out of them.
I think femdoms are turned off by "auto submission." What woman wants a man who just wants to submit, to find a service provider for him to let his submissiveness ooze out for? And you just happen to be the femdom-of-the-day? Women want a man who wants to submit to *her*.
That's part of the attraction of dominating a man who isn't submissive. In some ways, to me, it seems that's the only natural way to express my dominance. After all, where's more power exchange: Dominating a man who loves to be dominated, or dominating a man who submits because he loves what it does to me (nothing else)?
So why even bother dominating submissives, anyway? Well, there are a lot of reasons -- but one of the most important things is that a vanilla man doesn't "get" BDSM and never will. He can do it, sure, and he can enjoy it for the pure act of pleasing his partner, but he doesn't have the same intense rush that a wired-submissive would. And with that also comes a lack of understanding of why it is not just "something fun to do" but a compelling, passionate, intense *drive* or *need* almost that can't be ignored. A submissive can understand this, understand the hunger, understand how it's a completely different connection. With that in mind, a submissive can take it to different levels in a lot of ways than a vanilla. All of those things are what make submissives often a more sophisticated partner and one who can have a broader range of activities.
The problem I had is that I couldn't find a mate who was both an exceptional BDSM partner AND a relationship partner -- lover, best friend, soul mate. There has to be some compromise somewhere. But, I can still explore BDSM with "BDSM-wired" people should I need to. It's not as easy to sacrifice all the daily life-needs that come with a soul mate for the benefit of good BDSM.
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Also, this part seems controversial:
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Be honest with yourselves and be honest with us. You're really not looking for a submissive male, are you? What you're looking for is an attractive vanilla man who'll give you kinky sex.
That's admittedly a pretty sloppy statement. Let me try again. Would those of you who disagreed with that, agree with this:
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Be honest with yourselves and be honest with us. You're really not looking for a submissive male, are you? What you're looking for is an attractive vanilla man who's tolerant and indulgent of your kinks.
Not quite. "tolerant and indulgent" would equate to stale, unemotional and dry after the first few times. A man has to really appreciate and thrive on the pleasure it gives the dominant for her to want to continue -- because he also has to know how to challenge her, push her buttons and understand her kinks -- just "submitting" isn't enough for the long haul. A submissive understands that. An *exceptional* vanilla man will understand that, if he wants to and tries. A lot of vanilla men would tire of it though.
Akasha
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