RE: "Acts of God" Riddle

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/14/2005 5:36:01 PM

Lordandmaster

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I don't exactly understand what you mean. First, "purveyor" means "seller" or "supplier." Do you really mean to say that someone who sells a weapon is a murderer? Something tells me that's not what you mean, but I can't figure out what you do mean. There are some legitimate uses for weapons.

Second, I'm hardly going to defend Jewish or Christian theology (since I don't believe any of it, and consider most of it wickedly fallacious), but the issue has been dealt with repeatedly over the centuries, and it's only fair to consider the arguments on the other side. For example, your drunk-driver example is usually handled by appealing to free will: God created the universe, but then granted human beings free will, and that's what allows people to make bad decisions like driving drunk and killing people.

BASICALLY, I agree with you that it's not easy to reconcile any of this with the assumption of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God. Things like retroviruses cause tremendous damage to life at all levels, and it's not very easy to explain their existence with any of the typical theological tricks.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

And leave it to the religious to defend their position with semantics. The purveyor of the weapon is a murderer. Who is the killer the drunk driver or the car? Unless god has no control over "his dominion"?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 21

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/14/2005 6:07:48 PM

Mercnbeth

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From: Palos Verdes Estates
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quote:

I don't exactly understand what you mean. First, "purveyor" means "seller" or "supplier." Do you really mean to say that someone who sells a weapon is a murderer? Something tells me that's not what you mean, but I can't figure out what you do mean. There are some legitimate uses for weapons.

Well DAMN! I have no idea now that I look at it! Is there an "Old English" definition that I can reference? By the looks of it I think originally I was going to use perpetrator, changed my mind, misspelled it anyway, and didn't edit it. I do hate spell check because it doesn't check for misused. It was totally wrong in any event. In keeping with the theme;"Mea Culpa!"

Whatever word, the intent was that being "all powerful" comes with assumed liabilities, unless all the dead people were evi; like the first born Egyptian babies killed the night of passover. Of course the religious could also say, they went to their "reward" and we should be happy for them. The same logic would me we make any killer a hero and the "kill them all, let god sort them out" mentality would qualify you for sainthood.

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Merc & beth

"The words printed here are concepts. You must go through the experiences." - Saint Augustine

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 22

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/14/2005 6:13:21 PM

sanita

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purely to answer the question...

if God said "Thou shalt not kill."
maybe God is a Big Ole Dominant.
God said "Thou" Not "We"
kind of like a Dom/me saying "Thou shalt not go out without a making our bed."
but the Dom/me can go whenever they want.

just a thought. if we are dealing with semantics.

i think, though, these things happened when God, or Mother Nature, or any incarnation was distracted, according to Piers Anthony.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 23

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/14/2005 6:26:26 PM

kisshou

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Piers Anthony and Radiohead all in the same thread... pinch me, I must have died and gone to heaven :)

(in reply to sanita)

Post #: 24

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/14/2005 6:56:34 PM

pleasureforHim

Posts: 171
Joined: 7/2/2005
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wtf? Am i in the right place? <checks for holy water.> i realise that "Off Topic" means it can be "other than BDSM" but what You guys think up to rattle one anothers' cages stupifies me. God's existence can be proven..if you accept the proof. Otherwise, His existence cannot be proven.

And btw, i have the "new and improved" Catholic catecism and on the subject of why God allows so much evil in the world, all it says is "so we can better appreciate God's goodness". Not a terribly satisfying answer. And evil does not account for natural disasters so there's still that question..which evidentially the Church did not feel was worth tangling with.

Seems to me i once knew the orthodox Jewish explanation, and it made more sense. Anyone know it?

pleasureforHim

< Message edited by pleasureforHim -- 7/14/2005 6:58:07 PM >

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(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 25

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/14/2005 8:43:27 PM

EmeraldSlave2

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The issues of course being:

If god is omnipotent then all was created and all occurs because he and only he allows it to happen. Thus, EVERYTHING that occurs is because he deems it to be "right."

If god is also benevolent, why does he allows bad things to happen to "good people" even to the point of violating his own rules?

Why does he choose to allow some people to be relieved of their sufferings and others not (accepting the conditions that these people are all fabulous religious people and in the eyes of god have perfect pedigrees)? Why does god choose to give miracles to some and not to others (which by the way, if you believe in miracles, then you believe that god is controlling things on a very direct personal level)? Why does he allow suffering and evil, even to those who are devoted?

If you are going to say that he just doesn't know about certain things, or doesn't keep an eye on it, then you cancel out the idea that god is omnipresent.

If you are going to say that things happen without gods permission, then you cancel out the idea that god is omnipotent.

If you are going to say that god accepts some bad things as being right, then you cancel out the idea that god is omnibenevolent.

I can dig up some of my old texts from my religious courses if you want some good sources on this. The "Problem of Evil" with a mono-benevolent god is ancient and has been debated far more in-depth and intensively than we could get here.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 26

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/14/2005 10:51:50 PM

knees2you

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Just 2 Words

"The Devil."

quote:

"Hell is Nothing without Heaven."

Sincerely, Ant

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 27

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/14/2005 11:12:34 PM

onceburned

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Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Leave it to the atheists to know their theology.

And leave it to the religious to defend their position with semantics. The purveyor of the weapon is a murderer. Who is the killer the drunk driver or the car?

Indeed, it is the driver although I think that the bartender shares responsiblility in some areas. But I'm not sure of the point you are making - you aren't suggesting that the companies which made the car and built the road are responsible, are you? Or the police for not stopping that particular drunk?

quote:

Unless god has no control over "his dominion"?

God has created an orderly predictable world, but if you accept the Book of Genesis he has turned control over the world to mankind. I am getting an impression that your idea of God is like an overprotective parent, hovering over their child to make sure that no scrape or bruise happens. Bad things happen in the world - that is our incentive to gain an understanding of nature and to modify our behavior to lessen the impact of disasters.

Ultimately, humans are responsible for preventing loss of life due to nature. I don't rule out miracles, but I think they are rare. God wants us to live in a predictable world so that we can act responsibly and promote the welfare of all humankind.

Here is a story from today's news which illustrates how our actions (or inactions) affect disasters. Climate only partly to blame for Africa food woes

< Message edited by onceburned -- 7/14/2005 11:52:33 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 28

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 1:49:10 AM

DemonAngel

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Joined: 5/1/2005
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Wow
I am all up for watching and taking part in discussions and sharing ideas(anthros thread was a good example)but what is with this 'lets attack anything we just don't get, but hey, lay the fuck off my belief and don't question my bdsm.'Thread started out well, and degenerates into whatever you get your kicks from i guess.

quote:

hypocrasy is the theory of confusion,moulded into form,hoping to take shape,but in the end, is just a pile of shit
-anon

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 29

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 5:29:20 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: knees2you

Just 2 Words

The Devil

But god created the devil and anything the devil does is because god allows it to happen and thus feels it is the right thing to happen.

I mean it works if you throw out the idea that god is benevolent or cares about humans, but most people don't want to do that.

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 30

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 5:32:39 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned
Ultimately, humans are responsible for preventing loss of life due to nature. I don't rule out miracles, but I think they are rare. God wants us to live in a predictable world so that we can act responsibly and promote the welfare of all humankind.

You're basically contradicting yourself. You can't say god doesn't interfere and wants things predictable AND he does interfere and makes things unpredictable.

Unless you want to say god is cruel and wants to do miracles to make some people happy and others die and suffer. The very act of interfering with SOME people means that he's actively allowing everyone else he doesn't interfere with to die and suffer, and even if you want to cancel out all the non-devoted, there's still plenty of devoteds out there getting a raw end.

(in reply to onceburned)

Post #: 31

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 5:45:04 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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Well, for us heathens..................

Most of us think that you can change the name of sons of Norway to sons of bitches, raise the entrance rates and let all the christians join.....................

LMAO,
Ron

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(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 32

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 9:00:58 AM

SirKenin

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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

If the Bible is the "Word of God" and the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is a statement of fact as God's commandment; why is it that many "Act's of God" such as earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc; kill?

They are not "Acts of God". Simple. God allows these things to happen (this is a result of man's sin, but that is another story), but God does not sit there and cause earthquakes and the like...

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Post #: 33

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 9:03:05 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
They are not "Acts of God". Simple. God allows these things to happen (this is a result of man's sin, but that is another story), but God does not sit there and cause earthquakes and the like...

If god allows them, god causes them. God allowed sin to be created, god obviously felt it was the right thing to have in the world.

If you go with the idea that god is omnipotent, then EVERYTHING happens because god allows it, because god feels its the right thing to happen.

If you are going to say that natural disasters are not acts of god, then you can't say for certain ANYTHING is an act of god, even creation, unless you are going to say that man is more powerful than god.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 34

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 9:13:22 AM

SirKenin

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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
They are not "Acts of God". Simple. God allows these things to happen (this is a result of man's sin, but that is another story), but God does not sit there and cause earthquakes and the like...

If god allows them, god causes them. God allowed sin to be created, god obviously felt it was the right thing to have in the world.

If you go with the idea that god is omnipotent, then EVERYTHING happens because god allows it, because god feels its the right thing to happen.

If you are going to say that natural disasters are not acts of god, then you can't say for certain ANYTHING is an act of god, even creation, unless you are going to say that man is more powerful than god.

Ummm. No.. Not even close. It is called free will, a fact you completely omitted. That is how sin entered this world. W/we were given a choice and W/we made the wrong one. Causing something, and allowing something, are two completely seperate and unique concepts.

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Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

If someone has to tell you how smart (or great) they are, chances are they are not.

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Post #: 35

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 9:56:12 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
Ummm. No.. Not even close. It is called free will, a fact you completely omitted. That is how sin entered this world. W/we were given a choice and W/we made the wrong one. Causing something, and allowing something, are two completely seperate and unique concepts.

Free will exists because god created it and said it was the right thing to have. Everything humans do because of free will happens because god created it, allowed it and feels it's the right thing to do.

We especially know this if we also believe that god can/does interfere with free will all the time (guardian angels, miracles, etc).

When it comes to god, the thing that people consider the omnipotent creator, allowing and causing IS the same thing.

IF you believe that god is omnipotent: Everything that happens is because god allows it to happen, because god believes it is the right thing to happen

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 36

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 10:33:30 AM

SirKenin

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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
Ummm. No.. Not even close. It is called free will, a fact you completely omitted. That is how sin entered this world. W/we were given a choice and W/we made the wrong one. Causing something, and allowing something, are two completely seperate and unique concepts.

Free will exists because god created it and said it was the right thing to have. Everything humans do because of free will happens because god created it, allowed it and feels it's the right thing to do.

We especially know this if we also believe that god can/does interfere with free will all the time (guardian angels, miracles, etc).

When it comes to god, the thing that people consider the omnipotent creator, allowing and causing IS the same thing.

IF you believe that god is omnipotent: Everything that happens is because god allows it to happen, because god believes it is the right thing to happen

Actually, this is very much anti-Biblical. Yes, God gave us free will. Yes, it is up to us to decide what to do with it. However, we often times go very much against what God wants and do O/our own thing anyways, and thus have to suffer the consequences of O/our actions. God does not believe it is the right thing for U/us to sin and this is stated in the Bible on MANY occasions.

God is NOT causing U/us to sin. W/we are doing it of O/our own free will. It hurts God, it even angers Him (and often W/we have suffered the consequences of this anger), but it is NOT God CAUSING U/us to do it. That is a cop out. God is allowing it to happen, as opposed to dictating every step of O/our lives. Therein lies the difference. Causing something, and allowing something, is never the same thing, not even by dictionary definition.

W/we have a choice, just like W/we have a choice whether W/we will have eternal life or not. God has given U/us the freedom to decide what W/we are going to do, and it is up to U/us what W/we do with it.

Likewise with these supposed "acts of God". They are not acts of God at all. They are acts of nature. Acts with very sound scientific explanations. God has nothing to do with it.

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Post #: 37

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 11:09:08 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Likewise with these supposed "acts of God". They are not acts of God at all. They are acts of nature. Acts with very sound scientific explanations. God has nothing to do with it.

I know you believe acts of nature and disease are a result of sin as well, yes?

Why would an omnibenevolent god even allow the ability of evil/badness to occur in the world? If he can do anything/everything, why not create a world with fee will AND no badness?

The fact is, he chose to create a world with badness in it, when he could have easily done otherwise (if he's omnipotent). This means he's not omnibenevolent.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 38

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 11:23:04 AM

SirKenin

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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Likewise with these supposed "acts of God". They are not acts of God at all. They are acts of nature. Acts with very sound scientific explanations. God has nothing to do with it.

I know you believe acts of nature and disease are a result of sin as well, yes?

No I do not. I believe acts of nature are simply that. Acts of nature. They have sound scientific reasoning and explanations. I believe God does not intervene but allows nature to take it's course. Perhaps in a perfect world without sin things would be different, but as it is, nature will happen. Tragedies will happen. Tidal waves, monsoons, earthquakes, disease, volcanos. All will happen as a result of sound scientific reasoning. Not because God caused it to happen. That logic does not make sound Biblical sense.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

If someone has to tell you how smart (or great) they are, chances are they are not.

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Post #: 39

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/15/2005 11:26:12 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3610
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

No I do not. I believe acts of nature are simply that. Acts of nature. They have sound scientific reasoning and explanations. I believe God does not intervene but allows nature to take it's course. Perhaps in a perfect world without sin things would be different, but as it is, nature will happen. Tragedies will happen. Tidal waves, monsoons, earthquakes, disease, volcanos. All will happen as a result of sound scientific reasoning. Not because God caused it to happen. That logic does not make sound Biblical sense.

Then why did you say:

quote:

[Acts of Nature] are not "Acts of God". Simple. God allows these things [Acts of Nature] to happen (this [Acts of nature] is a result of man's sin, but that is another story),

Anyway, god still allows it to exist when he knows it causes evil and suffering for no reason .

Here's a reasonable link that summarizes the issues The Problem of Evil

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 40

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