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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

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ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

John Wayne or Alan Alda?

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Personally, no contest, based on the characters they've played not on the men themselves.

Alan Alda all the way.

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ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

I think we should not allow ourselves to be sidetracked into a discussion of ancient greek mythology but refocus on the subject at hand: forced masculinity. My thought had been that we should adjust our thinking from masculinity to manliness.

I disagree with TammyJo. Alan Alda = sensitive new age male. John Wayne = Manly man. Leonardo = metrosexual. Crowe = manly man. [speaking of the type of roles they typically play NOT the men themselves].

Think of the traits identified in the book being discussed. Confidence in the face of risk and easy assumption of authority. Not mentioned are 'horndog with good networking skills."

I think of a phrase that you used to here more often than you do nowadays: He's a man's man.

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I never should have responded to the part of about Achilles cause it has so side tracked this thread.

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ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Anyway, the subject of Achilles IS directly tied into this thread, BTW, because the "masculinist" females here seemed mostly focused on outward male appearances (Johw Wayne v. Alan Alda) and also the derision of sissies (outwardly female) as imasculated. There was the rush of female power, discussed about dominating a Manly Man (tall, strong, rugged, etc.) as opposed to the low class endeavor of connecting to more "effeminate" men. Next, the whole idea of "forced masculinity" implies changing Alan Alda into John Wayne or Hamlet into Achilles or a man that likes to cook into a man that likes to fix cars.......(kind of funny isn't it???)

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Threads can and should take on a life of their own. They should be human and like the branches of a tree, sprout out in all directions. They should be revealing about the posters themselves, and they should provide a reasonable and exciting collision course for opposing views and personalities.

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And I still do not see most of these so-called masculine traits as more than personality traits that can be applied to anyone but get gender-typed regardless of the evidence.

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For some of the FEMDOMs here, a sub such as Achilles would be the ultimate prize --- a slayer of men and armies --- but submissive to them. A man who spits in a King's eye but who kisses her foot. He's basically the FEMDOM equivalent of a male trophy wife.

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ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass

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And I still do not see most of these so-called masculine traits as more than personality traits that can be applied to anyone but get gender-typed regardless of the evidence.

In specific cases, sure. But as a general rule, no. Male power or manliness is a reflection of nature, of our biological reality as much as testoterone is. Despite 30 years of trying to re-educate the young re sexual stereotypes they still pretty much hold true. Men still drive trucks, fly planes, fix cars, and mow lawns. Women still teach kindergarten, empty hospital bedpans, and clean the kitchen, etc. Manliness has a moral element too, it's not just about assertiveness and aggression.