luvdragonx
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/22/2005
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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
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ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
(example - during a heated discussion, the sub implied that she was better suited (than wife) to know what HE needed because she was his sub, and that what she does is in HIS best interest (unlike wife; implied)) That's rubbing salt in wounds that you know are there, even if you didn't cause the hurt to begin with.
Yeah that's a classic thing you DON'T say...but my guess is that everyone's done some hurtful pointless things to everyone at some point in all this.
Yep, everyone has done hurtful things in this relationship. When they stop playing the Blame Game and each owns their part in the mess, it's a step in the right direction.
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I did advise him that there is no way his wife can trust him as long as as the sub is still in the picture.
Is this about trust?
IMO, it is about trust now. She doesn't trust that he is truly concerned about her feelings; she doesn't trust that he can love her and work on their relationship when there is someone else he appears to be happier with. She doesn't trust that things will ever change because after all this time, nothing really HAS changed. In the past 9 years, he's had 3 relationships, with a break of only a couple months in between. So he's always had the Other one in his life.
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She's felt that she sacrificed a lot over the years and if he is willing/not willing to make a visible (key word being VISIBLE) sacrifice too, that will make or break the rebuilding process.
Unfortunately she's not a martyr. I'm sure she has sacrificed a lot over the years, but one must ask how she would REALLY feel if he did all that she asked? Doesn't she want him to do it because it's right for him, not just as some way to balance the scales?
No, she's not the martyr she thinks she is, no more than he is. The thing is, they've both made sacrifices that they probably shouldn't have, and the other was too caught up in his/her own sacrifices to see what the other was going through. I'm not saying her thinking is right in this case, but again, having been on her side of things, I understand how she thinks that will make a difference or prove something. When we were going through our issues, I kept waiting for Anopheles to say The Right Thing. Problem is, whatever he said wouldn't be The Right Thing, so I was disappointed and resentful all over again. Once I realized that he was doing the best he could do, I had to learn to accept him as he was - a man who was trying.
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In her perception, if Sub is still around, he won't be motivated to focus on her and their marriage.
I suppose this makes sense, on the other hand I doubt it's that simple a reason she wants the sub gone.
Nah, nothing simple about it. There are deeper core issues here, and once (if) the sub is gone, then what? She still won't be satisfied because their problems are still there. She may then hold onto the idea that the sub USED to be around, and use that as target practice for a while. Eventually you run out of stuff to pick apart and you're only left with yourself.
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And in a lot of ways that is true - since he has possibly been using the Sub as an escape from his marriage problems, he could use her as a crutch when things get tough.
HAS he been using the subs like that? Does this sub see herself as that? After all, we all use our relationships for support when we need it.
He and I talked about it, and he's admitted that he can't say for sure if his relationships were based solely on love for someone else, or if they were for an emotionally safe relationship. During our talking he uncovered that things have never really been okay with them, so he's never had a secondary while things were good to compare with. I don't believe the sub sees him that way, and she probably doesn't want to think that his love for her is anything but genuine and based on who she is, not what she represents in relation to his issues. But support is one thing. Distraction is another.
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I thought the marriage problems were forced out BECAUSE of the insecurity issues AFTER they became poly...this sounds like there were insecurity issues already and he brought new chicks around to avoid them.
That's what I think now as well. I think that since they weren't able to effectively communicate and love each other the way they wanted, they turned to poly and another person to give/receive that love and hope to use that person as a common ground for loving and communicating with each other. Bad motive, if that was the case.
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I think if the Sub really loves him, she should take a step back and let him do what he needs to do.
Hmm point of fact: The phrase "if you really love him/me/you..." is never a fair or positive statement to make when rebuilding a relationship. This issue has nothing to do with who loves who or who loves who more or who doesn't really love anyone. Pulling out a card like that puts the onus on the wrong place and forces guilt rather than understanding.
I use that phrasing for particular reason though. If her relationship is based on love and not just security or dependency, she should want to do what's best for everyone. If his wife is saying 'I don't want you here', the sub countering with "But he does" is not the way to go. She entered a triad with the both of them. To me, that means the sub should consider the wife's feelings as well. It's been made clear that her being there is a source of contention, no matter how unfair or misplaced the feelings are. Should she abandon them both? No. But should she force them to make it work with her included? I don't think so in this case.
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Should she let the dom do what he needs to do? Yes. Does that mean she should go away? Not necessarily. The fact is that he HAS made commitments to both of these women. To dismiss one over the other would be unethical.
It's a hard situation, for sure. And the fact that he would need to choose one relationship over the other speaks volumes about the basis for both relationships in the first place. He made a commitment to the sub he had no business making. But to lend some perspective, theirs is a marriage of almost 2 decades, including all the fixings - offspring, property and debt. The relationship with the sub is 9 months old, which came practically on the heels of a previous relationship.
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For the sub to decide that this situation isn't working and that perhaps later it can and to go away of her own accord for THOSE reasons is acceptable. For the dom to realize he must end the commitment with one person because he can no longer uphold that commitment to THAT person is an acceptable reason. Harsh, but acceptable.
But to literally choose one relationship over another after committing to both- that would be a great sin for me.
When you put it that way, then I agree with you. The shades of difference between 1. ending one relationship in favor of the other{edit}, and 2. ending one relationship because you can't do both, are very, very subtle.
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Be it rebuilding his marriage, or arranging for a divorce, there's nothing she can really do to help the situation. In the meantime, she might find her ideal relationship, or he/they will be back and better than ever for her later.
Indeed.
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Monogamy with his wife - while they work things out - is probably what he deserves.
Yeah THAT's a good start to rebuilding a relationship.
Um, I wasn't sure if that was toungue-in-cheek.......but if he can't handle his primary effectively and responsibly, then he can't handle a secondary that way either. He made the (possibly) selfish choice to bring an unknowing 3rd party into their dysfunction. He should have to make an equally selfless and difficult choice in righting things as much as he can on his part.
I believe he needs to see what healthy communication and a functioning relationship with his wife REALLY feels like before he jumps back on the Poly bandwagon. It's difficult to say something won't work if you've never actually tried it. Likewise, he can't honestly say that his marriage can't work if he's never really worked on it.
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We're offering our support and experience in hopes that they find it helpful. I'm not sure what's more incredible here - the fact that the couple witnessed this EXACT same thing with us years ago, or how clear things are to me looking back on them.
Emotions are weird things, connections even weirder.
Do they know why they want the marriage to continue?
This is why I THINK they want to stay married. (Some of this I got from them, some of it I'm interpreting)
They love each other.
They value one another.
Despite the turmoil, they have an intimacy and familarity that no one else will ever have.
They know more about each other than anyone else.
They have hope somewhere in there.
It's hard to dissolve something that was so much of an investment.
They know they didn't get married for nothing.
They want the relationship they thought and pretended they had, and
They want to part ways knowing that ther really did try their best.
< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 11/3/2005 12:42:06 PM >
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