The Moral of the story is..........

The Moral of the story is.......... (Full Version)

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luvdragonx -> The Moral of the story is.......... (11/2/2005 1:34:44 PM)
Make sure your house is clean before you invite people over....that way you don't have to apologize for the mess. I said this to a close friend of mine recently who is dealing with a hard and potentially life changing crisis. This friend is the ex Dom of mine I've written about before. The sad and incredible irony of his situation is that he and his primary(spouse) are going through a nearly identical hardship to the one my husband and I went through - which, incidentally, was a key factor in the initiation and demise of my D/s relationship with the Dom. When two people come together in a union such as marriage, it's easy to believe that things and people with be the same no matter what. Truth is, people change. That only becomes a problem when one or both people don't communicate those changes and accept them. This couple has been together for many many years, and I always believed they had it together - that was the impression they gave. Now it's come to light that things aren't all good and haven't been for a long time. She is insecure and masks it with passive/agressive behavior and impulsive actions. He deals with that by avoiding conflict. Both end up seeking fulfillment from others, thinking it will somehow make things better. I know what it's like to sacrifice what feels like an essential part of you because you think that's what you're supposed to do for the one you love. And then resent that person for letting you do it. Then you resent yourself. Then you look to the other person to make you feel better about your choices, but it doesn't work. Then you resent them all over again. Do all that stuff long enough and you forget what you're really supposed to be doing. You forget how 'Good' feels. And you go through the motions of keeping things as pain free as possible, nevermind that you're growing farther apart and you can't see a way back. But you love each other, right? There is a light at the end, Anopheles and I would stand as a testament to that. It's not an easy road and at times, neither of us thought we'd make it. But here we are better than we ever were. So before you choose to bring someone into your house, make sure it's really clean - the trash picked up, everything put away, not just swept under the rug, or shoved in the closet.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/2/2005 8:45:37 PM)
Excellent point. My life recently went through a lot of upheaval. I also know that my life is going to be going through a lot of upheaval in the next 12 months. Because of this I am actively NOT allowing myself to build new committed relationships with people. I still date new people, I still play with new people, but I make it clear that I'm not able to invest the time or energy needed in order to sustain a real commitment with anyone not already on my plate. And I'm working actively to clear my plate of a few other things already there.

luvdragonx -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/2/2005 11:12:12 PM)
I admire your choices in that, Lucky. I believe they are ethical and show concern for the people who could be affected. What I forgot to mention in the first post (which is what led me to post this in the Poly forum) is that in addition to the turmoil in their life, there is a third person being affected by it as well - the sub and third member of the triad caught in the backlash. Now she has to suffer as well because the relationship she values is in jeopardy. She has made a significant investment in the triad and, as it stands now, it's going to kick her in the teeth. It's not her fault that they had unresolved issues before she got there, and she was basically sold a bill of goods, since the relationship was presented as solid and stable and it's anything but that. So now she has to figure out what she's going to do. The bottom line is, don't agree to Poly just to make the other person happy, thinking that them being happy will make you happy with it. That's what happened with us, and it's also what happened with them. By 'going along' with a poly lifestyle, that resentment can build up and manifest itself in negative ways. Likewise, being the partner of the 'goer along' means that the onus of making things 'right', albeit unfairly, will fall on YOU. So when the sh** hits the fan, the reason for the fall out will almost always be the Other Person, because one partner never really wanted them there to begin with. Then the Other Person might feel to blame at a minimum, and even worse, have changed their entire lifestyle to fit the poly relationship which ends up going to hell anyway. It's not fair to anyone. Being in a poly relationship isn't so much more complicated than any other IMO. Understand what is required of relationships - period - and you'll have a better shot.

anopheles -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 8:57:14 AM)
Yep. I think that it's easy to try to be poly, but hard to keep it up, particularly in the situation where you attempt to have a triad. The flow of emotions has to flow between all three, instead of how often it appears to happen, where one person is the center of two relationship, but the other two really don't have any sort of communcation or interest in each other. Then what happens is a situation where the other two look to the common person in the relationship for fulfillment, and that central member has to carry on this balancing act to keep both of the legs of the broken triangle from falling apart. In this particular situation that luvdragon is talking about, if all three had been equal members, then things may not have happened this way, as the 3rd member of their triad, the addition to their marriage that they found and accepted into their lives, probably would be able to assist in ways that couple isn't able to do for themselves. But, there was mainly resentment going back and forth between two of them, with the "guy in the middle" trying to make it work for both of them, seperately. Under the happy veil of poly D/s, everything on the surface appeared to be OK. Sadly, it wasn't, and now all thats really left for them is to pick up the pieces and try to move on.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 9:08:24 AM)
Can I say I don't get it? And I'm usually good at figuring poly complicated issues. Can someone sort of just outline exactly how things progressed and what the issue is?

luvdragonx -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 10:13:12 AM)
[:)] NP Basically the couple has issues with communication that go back more than a decade. She is insecure, he sucks at resolving conflict. She is passive/aggressive when she feels insecure, he avoids her like the plague when she's in a mood. For years, they've done this. She's gone along with the program of Poly, possibly hoping to make HIM happy, or hoping to find someone to fill the void she felt she had; same with him - looking for someone to be emotionally safe with - but neither of them saw it that way, they were just taking the 'next logical step' since they had SO much love to give. Fast forward through 3 long term relationships (for him) and countless quickie relationships (for her). The long term relationships he had always morphed into triads for the both of them - but they only lasted as long as she was on an 'up-cycle'. Once the insecurity kicked back in, there was a problem. And her problem became everyone's problem. Now we're on the most recent addition. As usual, the sub started out at just HIS, and then she was welcomed with open arms into the triad. At first it's all cotton candy and rainbows - EVERYTHING is great. The wife makes more and more gestures of acceptance and goodwill toward the new sub (maybe to make herself believe she means it?), all the while resenting the hell out of her husband and the sub for letting her do so much, when she's not getting anything out of it (of course they don't know she's not fulfilled, she's never said so outright). This eventually blows up again. Only this time, hubby has had enough. The only thing is, his decision to address the issues NOW that he has a sub he loves SO MUCH is adding to the wife's insecurity. It's as if he could deal with her stuff for umpteen years, but now that he has the new girl, he can't take it anymore. Now the wife is in a tailspin, and the husband is holding on to his safe harbor (the sub) harder than ever. It's a nasty cycle and now they're talking about divorce because Wife can't get past Sub being around and Husband is afraid to lose Sub, who is a sure thing (at least right now). If they had been more communicative and honest years ago, this blow up likely wouldn't have happened. Even if they weren't perfect, if they were at least aware of the insecurity/conflict avoidance issues, they could have let the Sub decide if those problems were worth her time. See, I was kinda rambling the first time, but I think (hope!) this makes more sense. I felt compelled to write something because having been there, I know that the scariest part of these situations is feeling that you're all alone and have nowhere to go, no one to understand or turn to - because so often your safety net would be your partner. There is a way through it, though it's hard to see when you're in the middle of it.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 10:23:40 AM)
Ahhh that is a tough situation indeed. I'd like to smack the supposed dom for a) not realizing what was obviously going on b) putting up with it for so long But hey, we're human and that's not the issue to deal with right now. My question is- who WANTS to stay with who? Will the wife REALLY be secure if the husband agrees to be monogamous? Will the husband ever REALLY agree to be monogamous? It's very heartbreaking for the third person/sub, but honestly let her go find her bliss. One of my best friends had to end her relationship with her master due to almost same circumstances. The marriage ended in divorce and the dom came back and the two of them are thrilled as poly together now. Unfortunately the third is always the one to be blamed in these situations.

luvdragonx -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 10:56:33 AM)
Yeah........I know what you mean. This whole situation stinks. And often times the 3rd usually is to blame when they are really innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire. Basically all three of them are trying to play the victim card when all three have responsibility in the way things have progressed. HIM - for avoiding issues and trying to smooth things over - essentially trying to spackle a 2 ft hole in the wall instead of putting up a new wall. HER - for going along with things to make him happy when they didn't really work for her. And for not owning her part in her unhappiness instead of blaming him or the sub SUB - for continuing to push her commitment to HIM when she became aware of problems the group. (example - during a heated discussion, the sub implied that she was better suited (than wife) to know what HE needed because she was his sub, and that what she does is in HIS best interest (unlike wife; implied)) That's rubbing salt in wounds that you know are there, even if you didn't cause the hurt to begin with. As far as will the wife really be secure - I can hope so. I know that in my own experience, it took a few years to recover from the series of mistakes we made. But we did recover because we were both committed to making that happen. As far as I know, they all want to make it work. I did advise him that there is no way his wife can trust him as long as as the sub is still in the picture. She's felt that she sacrificed a lot over the years and if he is willing/not willing to make a visible (key word being VISIBLE) sacrifice too, that will make or break the rebuilding process. In her perception, if Sub is still around, he won't be motivated to focus on her and their marriage. And in a lot of ways that is true - since he has possibly been using the Sub as an escape from his marriage problems, he could use her as a crutch when things get tough. I think if the Sub really loves him, she should take a step back and let him do what he needs to do. Be it rebuilding his marriage, or arranging for a divorce, there's nothing she can really do to help the situation. In the meantime, she might find her ideal relationship, or he/they will be back and better than ever for her later. Now you ask if monogamy is the answer - I don't think so. His issues are his issues regardless of how many people he's in a relationship with. If he decided to go with the Sub and do poly with her, the issues of avoiding conflict are still there. Monogamy with his wife - while they work things out - is probably what he deserves. He's used these others as a means to cope with the turmoil at home. Having someone else around during the healing process is just a distraction, IMO. We're offering our support and experience in hopes that they find it helpful. I'm not sure what's more incredible here - the fact that the couple witnessed this EXACT same thing with us years ago, or how clear things are to me looking back on them.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 11:30:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx (example - during a heated discussion, the sub implied that she was better suited (than wife) to know what HE needed because she was his sub, and that what she does is in HIS best interest (unlike wife; implied)) That's rubbing salt in wounds that you know are there, even if you didn't cause the hurt to begin with. Yeah that's a classic thing you DON'T say...but my guess is that everyone's done some hurtful pointless things to everyone at some point in all this. quote: I did advise him that there is no way his wife can trust him as long as as the sub is still in the picture. Is this about trust? quote: She's felt that she sacrificed a lot over the years and if he is willing/not willing to make a visible (key word being VISIBLE) sacrifice too, that will make or break the rebuilding process. Unfortunately she's not a martyr. I'm sure she has sacrificed a lot over the years, but one must ask how she would REALLY feel if he did all that she asked? Doesn't she want him to do it because it's right for him, not just as some way to balance the scales? quote: In her perception, if Sub is still around, he won't be motivated to focus on her and their marriage. I suppose this makes sense, on the other hand I doubt it's that simple a reason she wants the sub gone. quote: And in a lot of ways that is true - since he has possibly been using the Sub as an escape from his marriage problems, he could use her as a crutch when things get tough. HAS he been using the subs like that? Does this sub see herself as that? After all, we all use our relationships for support when we need it. I thought the marriage problems were forced out BECAUSE of the insecurity issues AFTER they became poly...this sounds like there were insecurity issues already and he brought new chicks around to avoid them. quote: I think if the Sub really loves him, she should take a step back and let him do what he needs to do. Hmm point of fact: The phrase "if you really love him/me/you..." is never a fair or positive statement to make when rebuilding a relationship. This issue has nothing to do with who loves who or who loves who more or who doesn't really love anyone. Pulling out a card like that puts the onus on the wrong place and forces guilt rather than understanding. Should she let the dom do what he needs to do? Yes. Does that mean she should go away? Not necessarily. The fact is that he HAS made commitments to both of these women. To dismiss one over the other would be unethical. For the sub to decide that this situation isn't working and that perhaps later it can and to go away of her own accord for THOSE reasons is acceptable. For the dom to realize he must end the commitment with one person because he can no longer uphold that commitment to THAT person is an acceptable reason. Harsh, but acceptable. But to literally choose one relationship over another after committing to both- that would be a great sin for me. quote: Be it rebuilding his marriage, or arranging for a divorce, there's nothing she can really do to help the situation. In the meantime, she might find her ideal relationship, or he/they will be back and better than ever for her later. Indeed. quote: Monogamy with his wife - while they work things out - is probably what he deserves. Yeah THAT's a good start to rebuilding a relationship. quote: We're offering our support and experience in hopes that they find it helpful. I'm not sure what's more incredible here - the fact that the couple witnessed this EXACT same thing with us years ago, or how clear things are to me looking back on them. Emotions are weird things, connections even weirder. Do they know why they want the marriage to continue?

luvdragonx -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 12:31:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx (example - during a heated discussion, the sub implied that she was better suited (than wife) to know what HE needed because she was his sub, and that what she does is in HIS best interest (unlike wife; implied)) That's rubbing salt in wounds that you know are there, even if you didn't cause the hurt to begin with. Yeah that's a classic thing you DON'T say...but my guess is that everyone's done some hurtful pointless things to everyone at some point in all this. Yep, everyone has done hurtful things in this relationship. When they stop playing the Blame Game and each owns their part in the mess, it's a step in the right direction. quote: quote: I did advise him that there is no way his wife can trust him as long as as the sub is still in the picture. Is this about trust? IMO, it is about trust now. She doesn't trust that he is truly concerned about her feelings; she doesn't trust that he can love her and work on their relationship when there is someone else he appears to be happier with. She doesn't trust that things will ever change because after all this time, nothing really HAS changed. In the past 9 years, he's had 3 relationships, with a break of only a couple months in between. So he's always had the Other one in his life. quote: quote: She's felt that she sacrificed a lot over the years and if he is willing/not willing to make a visible (key word being VISIBLE) sacrifice too, that will make or break the rebuilding process. Unfortunately she's not a martyr. I'm sure she has sacrificed a lot over the years, but one must ask how she would REALLY feel if he did all that she asked? Doesn't she want him to do it because it's right for him, not just as some way to balance the scales? No, she's not the martyr she thinks she is, no more than he is. The thing is, they've both made sacrifices that they probably shouldn't have, and the other was too caught up in his/her own sacrifices to see what the other was going through. I'm not saying her thinking is right in this case, but again, having been on her side of things, I understand how she thinks that will make a difference or prove something. When we were going through our issues, I kept waiting for Anopheles to say The Right Thing. Problem is, whatever he said wouldn't be The Right Thing, so I was disappointed and resentful all over again. Once I realized that he was doing the best he could do, I had to learn to accept him as he was - a man who was trying. quote: quote: In her perception, if Sub is still around, he won't be motivated to focus on her and their marriage. I suppose this makes sense, on the other hand I doubt it's that simple a reason she wants the sub gone. Nah, nothing simple about it. There are deeper core issues here, and once (if) the sub is gone, then what? She still won't be satisfied because their problems are still there. She may then hold onto the idea that the sub USED to be around, and use that as target practice for a while. Eventually you run out of stuff to pick apart and you're only left with yourself. quote: quote: And in a lot of ways that is true - since he has possibly been using the Sub as an escape from his marriage problems, he could use her as a crutch when things get tough. HAS he been using the subs like that? Does this sub see herself as that? After all, we all use our relationships for support when we need it. He and I talked about it, and he's admitted that he can't say for sure if his relationships were based solely on love for someone else, or if they were for an emotionally safe relationship. During our talking he uncovered that things have never really been okay with them, so he's never had a secondary while things were good to compare with. I don't believe the sub sees him that way, and she probably doesn't want to think that his love for her is anything but genuine and based on who she is, not what she represents in relation to his issues. But support is one thing. Distraction is another. quote: I thought the marriage problems were forced out BECAUSE of the insecurity issues AFTER they became poly...this sounds like there were insecurity issues already and he brought new chicks around to avoid them. That's what I think now as well. I think that since they weren't able to effectively communicate and love each other the way they wanted, they turned to poly and another person to give/receive that love and hope to use that person as a common ground for loving and communicating with each other. Bad motive, if that was the case. quote: quote: I think if the Sub really loves him, she should take a step back and let him do what he needs to do. Hmm point of fact: The phrase "if you really love him/me/you..." is never a fair or positive statement to make when rebuilding a relationship. This issue has nothing to do with who loves who or who loves who more or who doesn't really love anyone. Pulling out a card like that puts the onus on the wrong place and forces guilt rather than understanding. I use that phrasing for particular reason though. If her relationship is based on love and not just security or dependency, she should want to do what's best for everyone. If his wife is saying 'I don't want you here', the sub countering with "But he does" is not the way to go. She entered a triad with the both of them. To me, that means the sub should consider the wife's feelings as well. It's been made clear that her being there is a source of contention, no matter how unfair or misplaced the feelings are. Should she abandon them both? No. But should she force them to make it work with her included? I don't think so in this case. quote: Should she let the dom do what he needs to do? Yes. Does that mean she should go away? Not necessarily. The fact is that he HAS made commitments to both of these women. To dismiss one over the other would be unethical. It's a hard situation, for sure. And the fact that he would need to choose one relationship over the other speaks volumes about the basis for both relationships in the first place. He made a commitment to the sub he had no business making. But to lend some perspective, theirs is a marriage of almost 2 decades, including all the fixings - offspring, property and debt. The relationship with the sub is 9 months old, which came practically on the heels of a previous relationship. quote: For the sub to decide that this situation isn't working and that perhaps later it can and to go away of her own accord for THOSE reasons is acceptable. For the dom to realize he must end the commitment with one person because he can no longer uphold that commitment to THAT person is an acceptable reason. Harsh, but acceptable. But to literally choose one relationship over another after committing to both- that would be a great sin for me. When you put it that way, then I agree with you. The shades of difference between 1. ending one relationship in favor of the other{edit}, and 2. ending one relationship because you can't do both, are very, very subtle. quote: quote: Be it rebuilding his marriage, or arranging for a divorce, there's nothing she can really do to help the situation. In the meantime, she might find her ideal relationship, or he/they will be back and better than ever for her later. Indeed. quote: Monogamy with his wife - while they work things out - is probably what he deserves. Yeah THAT's a good start to rebuilding a relationship. Um, I wasn't sure if that was toungue-in-cheek.......but if he can't handle his primary effectively and responsibly, then he can't handle a secondary that way either. He made the (possibly) selfish choice to bring an unknowing 3rd party into their dysfunction. He should have to make an equally selfless and difficult choice in righting things as much as he can on his part. I believe he needs to see what healthy communication and a functioning relationship with his wife REALLY feels like before he jumps back on the Poly bandwagon. It's difficult to say something won't work if you've never actually tried it. Likewise, he can't honestly say that his marriage can't work if he's never really worked on it. quote: quote: We're offering our support and experience in hopes that they find it helpful. I'm not sure what's more incredible here - the fact that the couple witnessed this EXACT same thing with us years ago, or how clear things are to me looking back on them. Emotions are weird things, connections even weirder. Do they know why they want the marriage to continue? This is why I THINK they want to stay married. (Some of this I got from them, some of it I'm interpreting) They love each other. They value one another. Despite the turmoil, they have an intimacy and familarity that no one else will ever have. They know more about each other than anyone else. They have hope somewhere in there. It's hard to dissolve something that was so much of an investment. They know they didn't get married for nothing. They want the relationship they thought and pretended they had, and They want to part ways knowing that ther really did try their best.

anopheles -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 12:49:35 PM)
As luvdragon mentioned, we faced a similar situation. The thing that is most troubling at this point, is that there is no real talk, at least that we know of, as how do you go forward. Luvdragon and I didn't make any progress towards mending our relationship until we got the point where we accepted what took place as done and never forgotten, and moved on to what we can do to make our future together a reality. What has happened has happened, and ongoing analysis of what happened only gets you so far, as the analysis keeps the feelings of pain from ever fading. The discussion of "How do we repair?" has not begun. Our hope is that that discussion happens, before it is too late to resurrect anything. --Anopheles

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 12:50:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx Yep, everyone has done hurtful things in this relationship. When they stop playing the Blame Game and each owns their part in the mess, it's a step in the right direction. The wife will need to apologize to the sub as well- that will take lots of courage. quote: In the past 9 years, he's had 3 relationships, with a break of only a couple months in between. So he's always had the Other one in his life. Hmmm I'm still asking why exactly they want it to keep going. quote: Once I realized that he was doing the best he could do, I had to learn to accept him as he was - a man who was trying. That was beautifully stated. quote: Eventually you run out of stuff to pick apart and you're only left with yourself. Pretty much. quote: He and I talked about it, and he's admitted that he can't say for sure if his relationships were based solely on love for someone else, or if they were for an emotionally safe relationship. Just for general info- I think it's OK to be in a relationship with someone for more reasons than just love. In fact I think it's GOOD. But if you are using someone, they should all be aware of it. If he HAS been using these girls as a "safe space" then absolutely he should end it for now and work on whatever issue there is. Find himself again. quote: I don't believe the sub sees him that way, and she probably doesn't want to think that his love for her is anything but genuine and based on who she is, not what she represents in relation to his issues. But support is one thing. Distraction is another. Relationships can and often are BOTH. This is why saying things like loving one another enough and "love will cure all" are crap. RELATIONSHIPS, and making them work, have very little to do with love. As these people are seeing right now. quote: Bad motive, if that was the case. No kidding. quote: If her relationship is based on love and not just security or dependency, she should want to do what's best for everyone. Yes but they should want to do what's best for her also- which ISN'T what they have been and are doing. And you don't do it "because you love him that much" but "because you know it's the only way things will work out long term." quote: If his wife is saying 'I don't want you here', the sub countering with "But he does" is not the way to go. Actually both are making honest statements to eachother. The problem is the wife can't respect the choice and accept the girl, thus leaving no manuevering for the girl at all. quote: She entered a triad with the both of them. To me, that means the sub should consider the wife's feelings as well. It's been made clear that her being there is a source of contention, no matter how unfair or misplaced the feelings are. Should she abandon them both? No. But should she force them to make it work with her included? I don't think so in this case. But you see the classic issue is that we automatically turn to the third in this case to butt out. I know the wife's been through a lot, but we're back to choosing one relationship over another and that's not cool. quote: But to lend some perspective, theirs is a marriage of almost 2 decades, including all the fixings - offspring, property and debt. The relationship with the sub is 9 months old, which came practically on the heels of a previous relationship. That really minimizes the feelings and experiences of the new sub. Comparing relationships like that just makes the sub feel very small and unappreciated. I'm not saying you can ignore a lifetime together. But you don't make a commitment and then say "sorry, seniority wins." That's really crappy. quote: When you put it that way, then I agree with you. The shades of difference between 1. ending one relationship because of another, and 2. ending one relationship because you can't do both, are very, very subtle. Cool. quote: Um, I wasn't sure if that was toungue-in-cheek.......but if he can't handle his primary effectively and responsibly, then he can't handle a secondary that way either. He made the (possibly) selfish choice to bring an unknowing 3rd party into their dysfunction. He should have to make an equally selfless and difficult choice in righting things as much as he can on his part. It was tongue in cheek. I agree that IF he wants to make his marriage work long term, he needs to do what he can to do that. However, it does no one any good to make him supress who he is and more than it would the wife. quote: They love each other. They value one another. Despite the turmoil, they have an intimacy and familarity that no one else will ever have. They know more about each other than anyone else. They have hope somewhere in there. It's hard to dissolve something that was so much of an investment. They know they didn't get married for nothing. They want the relationship they thought and pretended they had, and They want to part ways knowing that ther really did try their best. You know what I notice about this list? They are all based in the PAST. They are all holding onto their past. That won't work. Why do they want to be together in 5 years? Where do they want to go from here? Why do they feel THIS is the person who needs to be in that place for them?

luvdragonx -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 1:40:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: I don't believe the sub sees him that way, and she probably doesn't want to think that his love for her is anything but genuine and based on who she is, not what she represents in relation to his issues. But support is one thing. Distraction is another. Relationships can and often are BOTH. This is why saying things like loving one another enough and "love will cure all" are crap. RELATIONSHIPS, and making them work, have very little to do with love. As these people are seeing right now. That is true. Relationships in general are often multi-faceted, and include both self-serving and selfless components. The key, IMO is determining the right balance and whether or not that balance suits all people involved. You're right - Love does not cure all. Love, good sense and some backbone - now there's a killer combo to contend with. quote: quote: If her relationship is based on love and not just security or dependency, she should want to do what's best for everyone. Yes but they should want to do what's best for her also- which ISN'T what they have been and are doing. And you don't do it "because you love him that much" but "because you know it's the only way things will work out long term." Yeah, and I could be tinting my observations with my own experiences, I've been trying really hard not to do that. I'd like to believe that I've learned how to temper Love with Logic, and vice-versa. In my world I like to think that because I Love, I'll do what's best. In spite of my Love, I'll do what's best. With my Love I'll do what's best. (ok, I just got sappy there) But you see what I mean. Again, this comes from having learned from mistakes. quote: quote: If his wife is saying 'I don't want you here', the sub countering with "But he does" is not the way to go. Actually both are making honest statements to eachother. The problem is the wife can't respect the choice and accept the girl, thus leaving no manuevering for the girl at all. Ahh, but using His wants as a defense for her wants - in a sense - isn't fair either. However, she is his sub - therefore it's a reasonable argument in a D/s sense. More complications to add to the pile. quote: quote: She entered a triad with the both of them. To me, that means the sub should consider the wife's feelings as well. It's been made clear that her being there is a source of contention, no matter how unfair or misplaced the feelings are. Should she abandon them both? No. But should she force them to make it work with her included? I don't think so in this case. But you see the classic issue is that we automatically turn to the third in this case to butt out. I know the wife's been through a lot, but we're back to choosing one relationship over another and that's not cool. I'm thinking on that one some more. I really respect and value your opinions here, so I'm going to be honest myself and say..... I think perhaps my bias is showing. I'll consider your points before I discuss the Subs role with him again. quote: quote: But to lend some perspective, theirs is a marriage of almost 2 decades, including all the fixings - offspring, property and debt. The relationship with the sub is 9 months old, which came practically on the heels of a previous relationship. That really minimizes the feelings and experiences of the new sub. Comparing relationships like that just makes the sub feel very small and unappreciated. I think I know where you're coming from, but being a wife myself (winces).......oooooo, it's really hard to accept that someone you've known for less than a year automatically gets equal consideration in the relationship with your husband of many years. Just like the shareholder with 10,000 shares has more influence and voting power than the shareholder with 5, the amount of investment is definitely going to factor in somehow. quote: I'm not saying you can ignore a lifetime together. But you don't make a commitment and then say "sorry, seniority wins." That's really crappy. Right, which is why they should have had their crap together to begin with. No one would have to pull out membership cards and compare the dates. If the couple is secure in their marriage, then they would know that there's truly nothing the sub can do to change that. quote: quote: Um, I wasn't sure if that was toungue-in-cheek.......but if he can't handle his primary effectively and responsibly, then he can't handle a secondary that way either. He made the (possibly) selfish choice to bring an unknowing 3rd party into their dysfunction. He should have to make an equally selfless and difficult choice in righting things as much as he can on his part. It was tongue in cheek. I agree that IF he wants to make his marriage work long term, he needs to do what he can to do that. However, it does no one any good to make him supress who he is and more than it would the wife. Again, good point, though I'd love to hear how he interprets Poly when/if he and his wife work things out. I'm betting he'll have a slightly different perspective and approach. quote: You know what I notice about this list? They are all based in the PAST. They are all holding onto their past. That won't work. Why do they want to be together in 5 years? Where do they want to go from here? Why do they feel THIS is the person who needs to be in that place for them? It's based on the past because that's all one can feel certain of. Dealing with the present is a challenge. The future right now is too scary to contemplate, and I imagine they are taking it one day at a time. Regardless of their marital problems (which are in reality individual personality issues) once they address their own faults and mistakes, it's likely (I'm hopeful) they will start to see what can be, instead of what was, and that list will change.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 1:45:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luvdragonx Regardless of their marital problems (which are in reality individual personality issues) once they address their own faults and mistakes, it's likely (I'm hopeful) they will start to see what can be, instead of what was, and that list will change. I think unless they change that list, they won't be able to start working on change. They are holding onto perfect ideas, not realistic expectations and desires.

luvdragonx -> RE: The Moral of the story is.......... (11/3/2005 1:59:38 PM)
Well, since the D-bomb (divorce) got dropped just a few days ago, I'm gonna wait a little for the smoke to clear. That line of reasoning doesn't make sense to a lot of people, but to them it's all they feel they have right now. They haven't dealt with the reality of each other for a long time. If they take a little time to maybe figure out who they are dealing with now, they can determine if they still want a future together. I think it's a lot to ask people who have avoided issues for years to immediately be able to think and act rationally. I'll go back to my own experience. Had I based my decision for the future on what was evident right then, we'd be divorced now. I couldn't look at the future with him because I didn't like him at that point, and frankly, he wasn't too thrilled with me. We had a connection at one point and that single factor was what inspired us to give it one more go. Once that was decided, we each worked on our own issues, and found that communication was much improved. That in turn led to liking each other more and having more in common for the future, which looked a little brighter, bit by bit. Ain't no easy answer for any of this stuff. I just hope they can all find it in themselves to do what's best.

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