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Punishment and Discipline


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Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 9:31:13 AM   
sweet`allure


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/28/2004
Status: offline 		What are your thoughts on these? When do you think they are required? What do you think it means when punishment is required?

Some thoughts ....
The two should never cross. Discipline should be exercised by both the sub and Dom, they are necessary. Punishment is necessary if a wrong is done or there is neglect.

Fear of punishment should never be the motivation to achieve discpline and also, discipline should not be the result of punishment. Too often i think maybe this is the case. Punishment does not have to be shown to show discipline. For example, a discpline might be having the sub keep an accurate journal. This is not punishment. If after one is sure the sub knows how to keep a journal and understands fully what it entails then perhaps punishment is the next course of action.

In my opinion, instantly resorting to punishment is the sign of a weak Dom because if you think about it, one who immediately resorts to punishment is admitting that He has no other way to control the matter. Why would a Dom want to do this for the slightest infractions?

On the flip side, the sub that constantly seeks punishment as a way of displaying her servitude is also weak.

If they enjoy the physical aspect of spanking or other physical pain or mental anguish then it is not punishment. Perhaps the Dom that allows this is being dommed by his sub. Or perhaps an S&M relationship is being mistaken for D/s.

i would think punishment should be the last resort of a Dom that has failed to control the relationship by the use of discipline and in fact shows that the dom is weak. Perhaps it is the line between being domineering and being a Dom?

Just some thoughts along the path of discussion and learning.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 10:23:16 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 1063
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		My opinion is so far away from the consensus on this particular board in most of these subjects as to be just about useless to you, but I'll give you a radical point of view from a particular subculture.

I agree, a discipline and a punishment are absolutely not the same thing. In my little corner of the world, it is a common discipline for slaves to kneel when a free man or woman, especially their master, enters the room where they are. Not to adhere to this discipline would probably subject a slave to punishment (which obviously isn't the same thing). We have other disciplines that are common, and may be imposed from time to time such as the discipline of deprivation (the slave isn't allowed sexual release) and the discipline of silence (the slave may not speak until the discipline is lifted).

As for the fear of punishment not being the motivation to discipline, we do not find it to be so. Punishment in whatever form it takes is an expression by the master of his displeasure, and a slave's (at least a slave that lasts long in our culture) motivation is to please. Now, for a slave, punishment might be anything from a whipping, to being given to a man for a while that they are known to find unattractive, to a simple look or word of displeasure from a master that they adore, but punishment is certainly a motivator, because it is the opposite of what they long for (expressions of pleasure and satisfaction in those that they serve).

By the way, if you were a slave in the culture of which I speak (and I know that you are not), your attempt to define any action that the free (dominant) might choose to take with respect to a slave as a sign of weakness would just be met with some bemused laughter, probably followed by a good whipping. You would be more than welcome to ponder how weak those actions were. From your knees.

Take care of yourself.

Leonidas

(in reply to sweet`allure)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 10:25:16 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline
quote:

What do you think it means when punishment is required?


To me... punishment is when I havent listened to a clear instruction and I repeat the 'offense'(please excuse the word, but it was the easiest in this context), even when the Dominant has instructed His displeasure. But I am a little confused by the question as it goes on(sorry if I am being a little thick).
I do not 'fear' punishment, but I embrace it. I learn from the situation... or at least that is my aim. To Angel, Discipline is training. (Maybe for others it is different ~ but thats the beauty of it all!) I am disciplined... I follow His Discipline... if I do not, or refuse to learn, or cannot see ~ then i am punished.

quote:

For example, a discpline might be having the sub keep an accurate journal. This is not punishment. If after one is sure the sub knows how to keep a journal and understands fully what it entails then perhaps punishment is the next course of action.


Now, for Angel, I do agree that a Journal is a disciplne, but, if I keep a journal for a Dominant and I keep it well, I am not punished, but I am rewarded.

quote:

In my opinion, instantly resorting to punishment is the sign of a weak Dom because if you think about it, one who immediately resorts to punishment is admitting that He has no other way to control the matter. Why would a Dom want to do this for the slightest infractions?


I do not agree that punishment is a sign of a weak Dominant. (sorry) The sign of a Weak Dominant is one whos sub is running around, creating havoc, disrespecting themself, and others. This just Disrespects there Dominant, and a Dominant who cannot control thier sub , should step back and see WHY they cannot.

I often think that 'Punishment' is mistaken for a 'quick spank or heavy Sm session'. Yes, it is an apt word, but in reality... a punishment is negative force that brings about a positive outcome.


Punishment
\Pun"ish*ment\, n. Severe, rough, or disastrous treatment. [Colloq. or Slang]

2. Any pain, suffering, or loss inflicted on a person because of a crime or offense.

3. (Law) A penalty inflicted by a court of justice on a convicted offender as a just retribution, and incidentally for the purposes of reformation and prevention.

4.A penalty imposed for wrongdoing: “The severity of the punishment must... be in keeping with the kind of obligation which has been violated” (Simone Weil).

(Hopes shes making some kind of sense)

_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to sweet`allure)
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RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 10:44:59 AM   
sweet`allure


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/28/2004
Status: offline 		Leonidas, Sir, i am familiar and well versed in what you refer to as your 'little corner of the world', that being gorean. i do see that in that regard things are very much different than in a D/s relationship.

i do wonder though, is the need for punishment always considered by you to be necessary for every little infraction of your displeasure? Is your method of training, teaching and discipline that only of punishment?

i'm afraid that even in a gorean context, from my experience and on the basis of what you have said, i find this to show a weak and perhaps domineering Master, not one that values his slave and wishes to assist her in becoming all that she can be.

(in reply to sweet`allure)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 11:10:52 AM   
sweet`allure


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/28/2004
Status: offline 		dark~angel, i don't think you are being 'thick' at all.

i think the only thing i personally would find to be different for me is when you say you 'embrace' punishment; i would not. To me it would mean that my Master/Dom has exhausted all other avenues or worse, that i have pushed him to that extreme. Then i would have to think, who is then controlling the relationship?

Perhaps when a Dom finds punishment is necessary it is an opportunity for him to reflect and learn?

just a thought

(in reply to sweet`allure)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 11:18:37 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline
*giggles coz Angel is stoopid sometimes...lol*
I guess I just embrace punishment, because Its a way I learn... I never see mistakes... only lessons. If a child does something that they shouldnt... then they are told it is wrong/ dont do that again... if they continue and continue... they are punished(ie... grounded, etc I do NOT advocate hitting, but thats my opinion... ) I do not see punishment as a negative response. It is only negative (IMO)if it makes the sub feel worthless and hurts her.

Cruel to be kind?

_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to sweet`allure)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 11:27:22 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 1063
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Leonidas, Sir, i am familiar and well versed in what you refer to as your 'little corner of the world', that being gorean.


Obviously not as well as you might think. You see, Gorean men reject out of hand the attempts of those not capable of something to define it. As an example, we reject the notion that a woman could possibly define what a man is. Men define manhood. The assertions of women that a man isn't a "real man" if he doesn't conform to some standard of manhood that women define, are, as I said earlier, nothing more than mildly amusing to us. The only definitions of manhood that we accept and honor are those made by men that we respect for having stood up and been men. Women who tend to want to control men by defining what manhood means don't want to be in the same zip code as us, because their control mechanisms don't work. Which suits us just fine.

Similarly, we find attempts by slaves to define mastery as again, just mildly amusing. Those capable of the mastery define mastery.

What I've said so far only addresses what you believe to be your understanding of Goreans. Now, as to your question. A well socialized slave girl will percieve as punishment just about anything that was meant that way. Just about any punishment that you could name, from "the look" to a whipping, imparts the same message: "I was less than pleased". It is to have been found pleasing that the girl desires. Not to have been found pleasing is the punishment, regardless of the means of expressing the displeasure. Is it weak to communicate displeasure to the slave? Nope. Weakness is in letting the slave "slide" as not to hurt her feelings, or in the case of a really weak master, to keep her from berating him for being a "weak master" (yes, irony intended). The old saying "you will know the tree by its fruit" applies here. To have a slave that is eager to please, delightful to the eye, devoted, and skillful is to have demonstrated the mastery. To have a slave that is self-centered, controlling (in any of the myriad ways that a slave might seek to exert control from their knees), not mindful at all times of their place, rude, impudent or ungracious is to have failed. The means are really moot. The end is all that really matters. From the Gorean point of view, the counsel to seek in such matters is of those who have shown that they know how.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 7/22/2004 12:10:35 PM >

(in reply to sweet`allure)
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RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 11:34:03 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline
As a kind of side question, Leonidas, if I may... should not a slave in a Gorean relationship be relieved and grateful that her Master/Owner would give His time to punish her, and thank Him? Or am I completely off target?

Thank You for reading this.

_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 11:51:36 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 1063
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		You are about right. We hold that how strictly a man keeps his slave, and how much he expects of her is in direct relation to how much he thinks of her. A slave whose master expects little of her, and "lets her slide" is heart broken, because the inference is that he thinks little of her. When we see a man who keeps his girl under the harshest of discipline, and holds her strictly to the highest standards, we smile to one another, suspecting that the man has fallen in love with his slave.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 7/22/2004 6:15:18 PM >

(in reply to darkangel)
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RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 12:25:54 PM   
sweet`allure


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Obviously not as well as you might think. You see, Gorean men reject out of hand the attempts of those not capable of something to define it. As an example, we reject the notion that a woman could possibly define what a man is. Men define manhood.


Leonidis ...or perhaps more than you think. That i come here and voice my thoughts and teachings on something does not mean that i do not understand the thinking of another way.

It amuses me to read what you have said, knowing that what i have voiced here was taught to me by One who is a well-respected Dom, the only one i call Master, even though He is not my Master. i too know that what i have talked about here is not a way that is widely accepted but suggest it is definitely one that deserves consideration.

You find it laughable that a mere woman would attempt to define a Master? i would offer, who better?



< Message edited by sweet`allure -- 7/22/2004 12:27:43 PM >

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 1:16:03 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 467
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Watching the jab and parry is interesting, I have to admit. I think, allure and Leonidas, that you are both quite right in your perspectives and that the methods you both seem to prefer are indeed workable. Unfortunately, they are also at cross purposes.

From Leonidas, the perspective is - essentially - that the definition of the roles for men and women must come from the man.

From sweet allure (and the one she calls Master) the definition is of mutual design between slave and M.

The end result for both modes are strikingly similar - everyone involved is happy. It's a bit like arguing which is better, Christianity or Islam. Both are inherently 'good' religions with virtues and flaws. One cannot practice both at the same time. One can be quite happy within the bounds of one or the other.

In the end, it comes down to finding what works for you. I don't second guess myself, if I feel a need to correct a slave I am training. If she is not living up to my standards, why should I coddle her? Why should I tell her she's done well, when she has not - it would only perpetuate poor performance. By the same token, as Leonidas suggests, if I don't feel a slave is worth the time or effort to correct constantly, I won't. It's up to her to be 'worth' correcting. Unfortunately, reality sets in, and I realize that it's hard to discipline a slave for speaking out of turn when we both have handfuls of groceries and three kids in tow on the way from the supermarket. And there are some men who simply are not up to the task of investing the time and effort of keeping a slave - thus they are better off with a submissive, sexual submissive, or just someone who likes a little choclate syrup on their ice cream.

This doesn't make one side, or the other less valid - just different. I, personally, like something in between.

Stephan

_____________________________

[GEEK] Me [/GEEK]
"There is always some madness in love, but there is also always some reason in madness" - Nietzsche
[image]http://img2.exs.cx/img2/7251/voltare-death.gif[/image]

(in reply to sweet`allure)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 1:16:08 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 801
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not going to get into the Gorean debate...but I will do my best to answer the original question....wait...was there an original question?

Punishment as a last resort. Hmm... depends on what you consider punishment. My slave knows my look of displeasure. That is equal to punishment in her mind....and that's fine by me. As far as physical punishment...depends on the situation. I am not going to waste my time explaining about how a girl had done something wrong...or why she is being punished if she knows exactly what was expected of her. (And for the most part...she is aware of what was inappropriate.) IF...by some chance, she honestly was not aware of what I expected. I will sit down and talk with her. I will clearly lay things out...and make sure that she understands that she may face physical punishment, should this ever happen again. I won't hold her responsible for my not giving clear guidelines.

Most of the time, everything gets corrected with a word or a look.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to sweet`allure)
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RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 1:30:41 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 830
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		I do declare I just love these debate things that get started on these threads. One could just about be able to tell where everyone went to school.

Re Punishment and Discipline; That could go on and on because it's another one of those things where we each have our very own way of doing things. Within a relationship, it takes that "our very own way of doing things" to another level. Therefore, I could say something is punishment, and you would say "pshaw!". Yet it would be devastating to My sub.

In my relationships my expectations are clear. Theirs are heard, and considered. Throughout the relationship there is open communication. So punishment and discipline don't get a lot of play.

However, once in awhile a sub will intentionally demonstrate incorrect behavior, to invite punishment/discipline. I don't believe they do it so much because they may be developing that fetish, as much as some need to feel that extra little power surge periodically.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_____________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so that the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to MrThorns)
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RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 2:07:48 PM   
gitta


Posts: 110
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Reading all of these posts makes one wonder why we can not just agree to disagree...i came to be Owned before there was an established Gorean culture, yet the ways i have been taught are very similar.
If one is Owned, they have made the choice to give their freedom to the One who owns them. Having given that freedom means they will live and abide by a given set of disciplines. These disciplines are clearly spelled out and expected of the girl, failure to do such results in being reminded of her station. Some call this punishment, others call it being valued.
If i have not followed the disciplines placed before me, first of all i feel shame and that in and of itself is punishment. Next my Owner will remind me that i am His property and have not served Him well. This can be a simple look, a deprivation, being assigned a hated task, anything that serves to make me look and learn.
If this one does wrong and is not corrected, her value is little, for a slave with value is worth correcting. This is not to say the slave is bad or worthless, it says the slave needs to improve her behavior to be a better and more valued slave.
What this slave hopes is that she is always corrected by those who she gives her freedom to, but more importantly that she gives her Owner little or no reason to correct her.

thanks for allowing this one to share

slave gitta

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
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RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 2:18:13 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 467
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline
After a bit of reflection, it came to mind that perhaps one of the concerns, is of the time, place, and manner a Dominant chooses to offer instruction is - necessarily up to the Dominant. In my experience, a slave consistantly trying to tell me how she needs to be trained, how she doesn't agree with a punishment, and generally (meaning routinely) has a laundry list of demands on how to 'Dominate' her - I wondered if she really wanted a dominant, or if she was just interested in living out things she had seen in her (many) BDSM videos she had collected. This is NOT to say communication has no role, or that a sub/slaves wishes or needs should not be respected. Rather, this is to suggest that if the Dominant is not permitted the latitude to enforce or effect punishment - no matter how often or rarely as he chooses - his role is no longer of a Dominant, but perhaps simply a kinky roleplayer.

Stephan

"You're mind is simply too small to be left wandering around all by itself without a leash."

_____________________________

[GEEK] Me [/GEEK]
"There is always some madness in love, but there is also always some reason in madness" - Nietzsche
[image]http://img2.exs.cx/img2/7251/voltare-death.gif[/image]

(in reply to gitta)
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RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 2:45:08 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 1063
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

In the end, it comes down to finding what works for you.


Absolutely Voltare.

Which is why I caveat most everything I post here with "here is one way, that represents one sub-culture". It certainly isn't the one true way, in fact it is a way that is foreign to most, and not particularly liked by many. I usually post here in the hopes that, because the culture that I represent is so different, it will provoke a more spirited examination of a subject, instead of everyone just posting roughly the same perspective, nodding to one another, and moving on.

Take care of yourself.

Leonidas

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 4:38:21 PM   
sweet`allure


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/28/2004
Status: offline 		Voltare, i agree totally with what you say. It goes with what i said originally about a sub being weak if she is constantly seeking punishment. In what you say as well, one would have to question who is controlling the relationship.

To everyone, i apologize if it appeared i was trying to cause trouble with what i posted. It was merely a vehicle for discussion, not intended as a debate (although there is nothing wrong with a good healthy debate either at times). i enjoy very much hearing different views ...never know when something will be learned.

Leonidas, i am quite familiar with gorean ways and respect anyone's choice to live by those tenets. i apologize to you as well if it seemed otherwise. i thank you for your responses and enjoyed the opportunity to discuss things here with you.

It seems the conversation ender is always along the lines of "what works for you".

i personally enjoy the discussions, to become aware and to explore what is right and what works, to allow for personal growth.

(in reply to sweet`allure)
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RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 6:03:01 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1199
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweet`allure

What are your thoughts on these? When do you think they are required? What do you think it means when punishment is required?


While I have agreed with some of the points on here and disagreed with others, I think that most everyone is missing an import part of the discipline/punishment equation...reward.

Before I get into that though, I need to define a few words and vent on a pet peeve of mine. First, I love punishments. They are a vey important part of my D/s dynamic and are worked into just about every contract I write. Now, before someone goes off and calls me a weak dom or somesuch other nonsense lets define the words:

Punishment: the removal of a (percieved) good stimulus or the introduction of a (perceived) bad stimulus in response to an undesired behavior.

Reward: the removal of a (percieved) bad stimulus or the introduction of a (perceived) good stimulus in response to a desired behavior.

Discipline: the internalization of positive and negative reinforcements of behaviors.

[pet peeve rant] Positive reinforcement does not equal reward. A spanking is a positive reinforcement. Stoping a loud peircing noise is a negative reinforcement. The reward/punishment value has to do with the perception of the stimulus while the positive/negative value is determined by addition or removal of the simulus.[/pet peeve rant]

In my view, discipline is created when enough reinforcement of a particular behavior has occured (either through reward/punishment of the trainer or through the reward/punishment of nature itsef) for the slave to internalize the reinforcemnet and continue the desired behavior without additional reinforcement.

As a general rule of thumb (and yes, the rods I beat my slaves with are no thicker than my thumb) I like to provide at least twice as much reward as punishment to reinforce any behavior. My punishments and rewards are both positive and negative reinforcement and I find that mixing the punishments and rewards and the modality of those makes for quicker learning.

Of course, that is all just my opinion at the end of a very long day...YMMV.

Yours,
Taggard

< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 7/22/2004 6:09:56 PM >

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.
http://bdsm.taggard.net

(in reply to sweet`allure)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 8:35:35 PM   
SherriA


Posts: 553
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I don't participate in relationships that have a punishment dynamic. It's not a healthy place for me to be; I'm an adult and expect to be treated as such in my relationships.

That said, punishment is the most widely mis-used behaviour modification tool, and the least effective. It's notoriously situation specific; it doesn't teach an appropriate behaviour to replace the inappropriate one; it often leads to resentment and hostility...it's just not particularly effective.

I have a friend who sums it up well. He says that if his partner has agreed to abide by his rules and is then intentionally breaking them, it's time to talk about what's going on in the relationship not time to punish anyone. If she's not doing it intentionally, then it's his problem because he hasn't ensured that she understood the instructions and again it's time to communicate, not punish.

This, of course, isn't applicable to "play punishment" (which isn't punishment at all really).

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to sweet`allure)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Punishment and Discipline - 7/22/2004 9:01:39 PM   
baileythorne


Posts: 264
Joined: 6/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA

I don't participate in relationships that have a punishment dynamic. It's not a healthy place for me to be; I'm an adult and expect to be treated as such in my relationships.

I have a friend who sums it up well. He says that if his partner has agreed to abide by his rules and is then intentionally breaking them, it's time to talk about what's going on in the relationship not time to punish anyone. If she's not doing it intentionally, then it's his problem because he hasn't ensured that she understood the instructions and again it's time to communicate, not punish.



This says it quite well for me. I'm a service submissive. I strive to enhance my partner's life. If I've bungled things enough to be punished, then we need to talk, because that is self-esteem destroying attention for me.

--bailey

_____________________________

Dance like no one's watching and
Love like you've never been hurt.

(in reply to SherriA)
Profile   Post #: 20
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