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obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure


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obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/10/2005 12:01:38 AM   
buffiyum


Posts: 84
Joined: 11/8/2004
Status: offline 		i have been told recently by a One, as a matter of discussion on the poly topic, that when a girl is collared to a Couple, then she is to be 'aware' of the differente dynamics pertaining to Them Both, when interacting with Them.
Now on the surface, that makes sense. However the question which brought it up is not so easily solved with a 'one sentence' response. this one thinks....
what does one do when one is for instance, in a store with Them Both and One goes left and the Other goes right? Who does the girl follow?
The same dilemma appears when One in the poly says 'I want total Transparency and Honesty so tell me everything' and the Other says 'I want you to forget all that and just tell only what I tell you to tell '. These directions are direct opposites.
There is no 'meeting of minds' on that one at least to me.
When one mentioned this however the response was about being aware of the various dynamics of the poly.
sheesh. Well, for buffy, that didnot make any sense at all.
When one questioned that, one was directed to consider that anyone who enters a poly and does not expect to face various types of inter-relational dilemmas is naive indeed and maybe should rethink 'polyamoury'.
i have to say, that i do not think the one thing is about the other. Yes there are 'various types of inter-relational dilemmas' to face within any poly.... but this goes beyond that i feel and questionning that, should not mean one is not 'suited to polyamory'.
A good slave serves, is pleasing and is obediente, that is what i have been taught. That becomes problematic however, when there would be difficulties of this sort within a poly relationship. When the Dom/mes within the poly situation cannot 'get along' and agree to a set of rules-of-conduct regarding the use of the slave which They will observe out of respect to Each Other, then how is the slave to know what to do and who to obey?? It becomes a mind-f*** of the slave whether or not it is meant as such. It can become an emotional nightmare!
we wish to please. How can we do that when pleasing One displeases the Other and can end up with the slave being called 'liar' and 'displeasing' on the one hand or 'disobedient' and 'displeasing' on the other?
What is one to do when one wish to be honourable and is hit with the 'hey youre a slave, do what you are told, even if it is dis honourable' sort of thing?
i think one would ask for help from Them Both Together and if They cannot alter the situation and fix it, i think one would beg release.
That said.....
what happens afterward when it is the slave who the Two blame for that poly breakdown eh? how does the slave feel and how does she get past that feeling of 'i failed to please'?
*gets down off her soapbox thing* (but whew the girl needed that). tYy
respectfully submitted
buffiyum

< Message edited by buffiyum -- 9/10/2005 12:11:26 AM >
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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/10/2005 10:41:53 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 518
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		This is where communication comes into the picture. When talking with them, find out where each had their expectations set. Ask the very same questions you are asking here--if we are somewhere together, and one goes one way and the other goes another, whom should I follow? It may depend on who will have the greater need for your services at that time, or it may be a difference in styles of shopping... For example, I am a loner in the stores, and very much and "in, get what I want, get out" kind of shopper. Lady SR, on the other hand, is a "browser"--she likes to have someone who will go down every aisle with her, while she explores. In our case, a servant would be much more likely to go with her.

In terms of transparency, it is not uncommon for one to want a different degree of transparency than the other. In our case, the servants are very transparent with me, and I expect that, as their spiritual guide. Lady SR, on the other hand, likes to have only the information she needs to maintain the pragmatic end of things. However, it is important to know that Lady SR and I talk--and if there is something that I think she needs to know, I will share it with her.

This really -is- a function of dealing with multiple dominants, and also with dealing with an established relationship that is bringing in new people. Obedience -is- challenging, but with open communication, and the chance to ask questions and clarify positions, it is a very functional situation.

It bothers me, to a small extent, that when you asked the questions, you were, it seems to me, dismissed. However, it may be that things will be explained in better detail in particular situations where the discussion isn't quite so theoretical.

It -may- be that this isn't a good fit...but without trying, how does one know?

Lady Zephyr


< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 9/10/2005 10:42:34 AM >

(in reply to buffiyum)
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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/10/2005 11:46:27 AM   
krys


Posts: 297
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		We may tell ourselves we wish to obey perfectly. However, we are only capable of obeying as well as possible. Going in two directions at the same time is impossible.

_____________________________

kry{Rk}

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/10/2005 2:50:29 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3610
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Pretty much summed it up already. It's up to the doms to work together and present a united front of authority towards the sub. Each dom usually will not want the same exact things regularly. For example, when I lived with a dominant couple, I had different chores assigned by each of them, they did not conflict with eachother.

If one had said "don't do laundry" and then next minute the other came and said "do laundry" it's my job to INFORM the other dom of the previous orders and then let them decide between themselves. If the second dom says to simply go ahead and do what he said anyway, I would and then expect the DOMS to sort it out later. You can't fault the slave for obedience and it would be a problem between the DOMS is there's a communication or prioritization backgroun (as long as the slave is totally forthcoming on all information available).

It takes a good team, but it certainly can be done and done wonderfully. In some ways there's nothing like the joy and satisfaction of knowing you're owned by TWO people.

(in reply to buffiyum)
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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/10/2005 3:04:24 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 704
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		buffiyum,

you get past that i failed to please feeling the same way you would get past any relationship that ended badly. Move on and realize that you did your best. Try not to dwell on what happened. Learn from mistakes that were made and make a conscious decision not to repeat them. Find a new hobby or activity to make some new friends.
my best wishes to you

kisshou

(in reply to buffiyum)
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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/11/2005 11:23:33 AM   
buffiyum


Posts: 84
Joined: 11/8/2004
Status: offline 		i wish to thank A/all those who replied to this thread. Discussion of theory is always of interest to the girl as are ideas on how to solve difficulties as they presente themselves within a given theory.
In this case, it was a r/l situation which the girl is very familier with.....
i feel that as Emeraldslave2 mentione, it is up to the Dom/mes to work together as a United Couple in how They give directions to a slave. It is up to Them to communicate First with Each Other, not do so through the slave per se. It is up to the slave to be transparent as possible, answering as honestly, openly as possible and to the extent requested by the particulier Master/Mistress who asked her a question. When the slave is trying her best to do what she has been told to do within any M/s relationship including poly, well, as Emeraldslave2 said, one cannot fault the slave for being obedient. one is not being 'naive' on 'how to relate to Ones within a Poly', one is only being obedient.
All that the slave can do then when there is 'conflicts' with the Dom/mes directions to her is to inform the Ones when this occurs. It is up to the Dom/mes to then solve the difficulties presented, not the girl. It is They who need to talk to Each Other, like Lady Zephyr mentione She talks to Lady SR, rather than find out what the Other Dominant did with the slave through asking the slave to tell. When the Other Dominant has told the slave she is Not to 'tell all' to the Other, then that is the quandry the slave was presented with. As kry mentione it is impossible to go in two different directions the same time. Bringing this up to the Dominants brought up the realization that the difficulty within the Poly was not with the girl, but with the relationship between Them. It did cause the collapse of that particulier poly situation for which the girl felt she was at fault for 'causing this'. the girl begged release and she weep on what happened for a long time and ponder it still too although like kisshou said one should try to do, she is trying to learn from it and move on.
It is Not the girls fault when the Dominants within the Poly find Themselves at pointe-non-plus because They do not like to acknowledge (let alone address) the problems within Their Own Relationship. The Affairs of the Free are Not the concerne of the slave. That is what i have been taught. It cannot be the slave's to fix, she is not an Owner.
It is very hard though, especially when one hears that They still blame the slave for the 'break-down' of that particulier poly, that They tell O/othes this.
one wishes Them well, Them and any future slaves They collar. And one stays as far away as is possible, given the closeness of O/our Community Lifestyle.
Sometimes this Lifestyle can be dam hurtful.
respectfully submitted,
buffy








< Message edited by buffiyum -- 9/11/2005 12:01:14 PM >

(in reply to kisshou)
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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/11/2005 5:53:54 PM   
zaynab


Posts: 377
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		I believe what you are describing is wayyy too complicated for ME!
One Master rules... then the heirarchy begins after that. Anything more complicated than that and I could only see a lot of confusion and chaos... for me, I mean.

If what you described works for other people... wow, I'm amazed. Sure must be time consuming and tedious to keep that kind of poly-family operating smoothly!

(in reply to buffiyum)
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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/12/2005 5:38:29 AM   
ChereeAmoor


Posts: 184
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		ok, this was hilarious to me, and I know it is NOT funny. Apologies in advance here, okay? But the scenario in the store where one Master goes one way and the other Master goes the other way and which way should the slave go had me giggling - because actually, going along with EITHER of them is correct. Also pretty good is thinking for oneself and not acting like a rat on a string!

This couple absolutely HAS to talk about this type of thing together and arrive at a happy medium. When you type:
quote:

How can we do that when pleasing One displeases the Other and can end up with the slave being called 'liar' and 'displeasing' on the one hand or 'disobedient' and 'displeasing' on the other?
, that is pretty sad to me, because of course nobody can win in that set-up.

Being called "liar" or "disobedient" would indeed be a sign that I had failed to please, but guess what? These birds have failed to protect. Doesn't sound poly at all to me since you were not considered - sounds like these two would be better off ordering a Real Doll.

(in reply to zaynab)
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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/12/2005 8:28:50 AM   
buffiyum


Posts: 84
Joined: 11/8/2004
Status: offline 		Well, to be honeste, i do feel that These Two need to talk a lot more openly and fully to Each Other, before They collar anyone else. They seem to be trying to 'Dom' each other, through interaction with Their slave(s), at the expense and to the detriment, of any slave involved. i do not think this is deliberately done. i think it is done because They are avoiding the real issues involved and maybe hoping those issues will just 'go away'. That rarely happens in Life though and sometimes, especially when other people are being hurt through inaction, action is required. It is always easier to blame someone else when things dont work out, rather than taking a good look into the mirror.
They seem like sincere People, and i have not any doubt that They are. But They do need to re-think a few things before any one else gets hurt.
Well, thats what buffy thinks anyways.
respectfully submitted,
buffiyum

(in reply to ChereeAmoor)
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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/12/2005 8:52:42 AM   
greenie


Posts: 579
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		this reminds me so much of when my ex and i first adopted our offspring and had to learn to work together to raise them, complicated at best. It can be worked out if the 2 Doms just sit down and agree that they are working together and that communication is paramount. Another thing they should do is agree to never discipline w/o first discussing it with the other Dom, just to be sure there haven't been any miscommunications for the sub. my ex and i are now divorced but we are such a good team raising our girls that it blows my mind on a daily basis.

(in reply to buffiyum)
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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/12/2005 1:17:42 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 823
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: greenie

my ex and i are now divorced but we are such a good team raising our girls that it blows my mind on a daily basis.


I think this line is of great significance. Both of you are connected to a common purpose... Your Children! Two Doms have to be equally Connected to that Common Purpose for the Well-Being of their Slave as well and I think even more SO! As Parents we have various interests and ways of doing things... As a parent we come together to dealing with the Children as one. A slave can only serve one Master.... The Two Dom/Domme must be one to the slave. One in that their individuals wants and desire of the slave will not be in conflict with each other and cause the slave unneccessary emotional pain. When I say One Master... - One set of rules and protocals! their can't be confliction withing these rules and protocals... These can come from two people or three or four, etc.

KoM

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Knight of Mists

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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/15/2005 1:44:02 AM   
MissDiandSirHugh


Posts: 963
Joined: 8/11/2005
Status: offline 		Like every thing in life there are set rules if it be Vegetable,Animal or Human as the carrot grows with the stalk up and the lion hunts the zebre not the carrot with stalk down or zebra hunting the lion the couple should have set their rules in concrete long before ever bringing some one else into their domaine as we have and that is how they stay set hard and firm by first discussing our thoughts and our desires and both working it all out as one to reach that equal level
At no time have these rules been changed or bent.
If in time and changed circumstances they were to be changed then that would once again be discuss by us both to once more have a streight understanding to follow.
Although never haveing been in a situation of each going their own way in a super market and leaveing the Sub/Slave confused thinking this over whom to follow we thought about it arriseing and talkeld on it decideing wewould have the Sub/Slave follow one then next time follow the other as to which one to follow that first trip still decideing.

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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/16/2005 10:45:09 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 823
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissDiandSirHugh


Although never haveing been in a situation of each going their own way in a super market and leaveing the Sub/Slave confused thinking this over whom to follow we thought about it arriseing and talkeld on it decideing wewould have the Sub/Slave follow one then next time follow the other as to which one to follow that first trip still decideing.


A Master can never establish a protocal or mode of behavior for every situation. The following is a decisions process I have for my slaves...

II. Provide – A slave is required to do the Masters will in the manner that the Master desires. The slave shall clearly understand what the Master’s will is before taking action. If in doubt, the slave shall ask for clarification from the Master. The slave should be able to answer the following before taking action, if not the slave should ask for clarification.

o The slave is to know WHAT the Master requires to be done.

o The slave is to know HOW the Master requires it to be done.

o The slave is to know WHEN the Master requires it to be done.

o The slave is to know WHERE the Master requires it to be done.



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Knight of Mists

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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/16/2005 7:40:34 PM   
krazysubbiekat


Posts: 145
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Wow, Knight Sir, you want an omniscient slave. Maybe one who is also a bit psychic. In my opinion, that would be wonderful...if you can find her. Good luck with that.

_____________________________

"Treat every day like it is a gift. Unwrap it and then wrap your arms around it; it will surprise and intrigue you." --N. Elchibini


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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/17/2005 4:52:44 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 334
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		"Wow, Knight Sir, you want an omniscient slave. Maybe one who is also a bit psychic. In my opinion, that would be wonderful...if you can find her. Good luck with that."

krazysubbiekat,

My Lord is not looking for a slave that is omniscient or psychic. He merely requires that when He gives my sis and I instructions that if we do understand, then we need to ask for clarification. There have been many times that I have received instructions from Him and I have had to ask for more information before I am able to complete the task. It is my responsibility to completely understand what He wants before doing the task. It doesn't require being a mind-reader; it just means I have to ask questions.

Knight's kyra

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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/17/2005 7:35:36 PM   
krazysubbiekat


Posts: 145
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		KyraofMists,

Thank you for that clarification.

_____________________________

"Treat every day like it is a gift. Unwrap it and then wrap your arms around it; it will surprise and intrigue you." --N. Elchibini


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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/18/2005 3:12:33 AM   
girl4you2


Posts: 1259
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

A Master can never establish a protocal or mode of behavior for every situation. The following is a decisions process I have for my slaves...

II. Provide – A slave is required to do the Masters will in the manner that the Master desires. The slave shall clearly understand what the Master’s will is before taking action. If in doubt, the slave shall ask for clarification from the Master. The slave should be able to answer the following before taking action, if not the slave should ask for clarification.

o The slave is to know WHAT the Master requires to be done.

o The slave is to know HOW the Master requires it to be done.

o The slave is to know WHEN the Master requires it to be done.

o The slave is to know WHERE the Master requires it to be done.




the way i read this is that very clear expectations are set up, and if any task is not understood, that there is encouraged and expected questions to make sure that there is full clarification before undertaking the task. i found this very well put and quite easy to understand, logial, fair, and very reasonable as well. nobody is omnipotent, and having the ability and the expectation to clarify before acting is wise indeed. with clarification and freedom to ask questions, successful completion of tasks has a far greater chance of ending up in pleasing and not disappointing. i think you've set things up well, in my opinion, at least, and i do commend you for this.

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RE: obedience vs disobedience or honoure vs dishonoure - 9/18/2005 9:40:33 AM   
krazysubbiekat


Posts: 145
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Hi again, y'all. As I was re-reading this topic, I realized where I came to an erroneous conclusion about KnightofMists's post. He stated that a Master "can never establish a protocal or mode of behavior for every situation" and then proceeded to outline the things that a slave should know about what a Master wants. Where my logic erred is not taking into consideration his allowing his slaves to ask for clarification.

"If in doubt, the slave shall ask for clarification from the Master. The slave should be able to answer the following before taking action, if not the slave should ask for clarification."

I apologize for jumping to conclusions and apologize for my rudeness.

kat


_____________________________

"Treat every day like it is a gift. Unwrap it and then wrap your arms around it; it will surprise and intrigue you." --N. Elchibini


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