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RE: submission - 1/28/2004 5:55:39 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1416
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadowHwk

MizSuz,

That is exactly what I meant.

While I am fairly direct in my manner of speech, I often lack eloquence - well said indeed.




HA! How very kind of you to compliment me for being too verbose!

Thank you. <smile>

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 1/28/2004 3:53:15 PM >

_____________________________

Suz

In honor of the impending ski season: If you're not livin' on the edge you're takin' up too much space!

(in reply to ShadowHwk)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: submission - 1/28/2004 7:08:20 AM   
Voltare


Posts: 467
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		crystal,

the short, yucky answer is 'yes.'

(And you all thought I couldn't be brief)

Stephan

_____________________________

[GEEK] Me [/GEEK]
"There is always some madness in love, but there is also always some reason in madness" - Nietzsche
[image]http://img2.exs.cx/img2/7251/voltare-death.gif[/image]

(in reply to crystalslave)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: submission - 1/28/2004 7:52:58 AM   
Voltare


Posts: 467
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		ok, ok, I knew the second I tried to sneak out a thoughtful response, I'd regret it.

I have a close dominant female friend who once told me she gets the willies just pressing the 'submit' button online when filling out a form - especially when shopping online. I think Sandy, Shadehawk, William, and Suz have really hit the nail on the head with their thoughts.

I think that the perspective of 'seeking' a female dominant, and a male dominant to be a little different, necessarily because there seem to be a good deal more male submissives in 'search' of fewer female dominants. Men are the more aggressive in 'seeking' a companion then women. I recommend to Domme's who are flooded with mail to a) make their criteria very specific in terms of what initial contact requires (appearing to be an application, but helps to alleviate the flyby one liners 'u r hot may i talk 2 u?' or the form letter resume that a male submissive can send to 100 Dommes in roughly 20 minutes, and then expect each Domme to reply with an hour long dissertation to such. I don't cut and paste 'form' letters of inquiries to anyone, I keep my initial contact letters to no more then two friendly paragraphs with a question or two, and expect a reply only if the person is genuniely interested in dialog with me.

Personally, I am of the opinion that a submissive interested in me should expect to express her interest. I find that the moment I am 'persuing' a woman, is the very moment I am no longer capable of controlling that woman. Emotions and vanilla interests should draw her to me equally as well as her 'natural' submissive tendencies, and without the whole package, I'm simply not interested.

Sherri, I will disagree with terming 'submission' in terms of setting a time limit, for a scene or otherwise. I do agree that one may 'bottom' for a specific period of time, but the natural interaction between people, in terms of submission and dominance, I don't think -can- be given a time clock. I don't confuse dominance, with dominating; the former is a quality or trait, the latter is the actual act of dominating. I can actively endeavor to dominate a woman, but if she is not receptive to my 'overatures' then I'll fail, and probably make a fool of myself. I would find a woman who states she can submit for a 'trial period' to be suspect - though, certainly we all grow and learn through experiences.

In the end, there are slaves who wish to view their submission as a gift. There are men who view it the same, and 'court' that gift (I've seen D/s chat rooms based on King Arthur's Camelot to this effect) and I've seen the other spectrum. In the end, again, look past the application, look past the D/s and BDSM labels if you're looking for a relationship, and you'll have more luck finding someone who compliments 'you' as a person, rather then someone to compliment 'you' as a Dom/me/S/switch/sub/slave/kinked/curious/gay/les/bi/straight/clueless

Stephan

_____________________________

[GEEK] Me [/GEEK]
"There is always some madness in love, but there is also always some reason in madness" - Nietzsche
[image]http://img2.exs.cx/img2/7251/voltare-death.gif[/image]

(in reply to crystalslave)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: submission - 1/28/2004 8:16:41 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2326
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		~SMILES~ at My Sistren whom are more eloquent then I but state much the same ideas and ways and reasons for the applications with in Our Lifestyle and productive practices that clearly show Us as Dominant in Our ways, and being one whom is not into the One on One Lifestyle, but one of a Poly Home with in three generations of Family of Poly BDSMers of now Gorean leanings and with over 45 years of being with in Alternate Lifestyles I find that and agree that there are still many whom desire to be a part of the lifestyle in their Own terms but also desire to have the respect of the position with in the lifestyle which sum times can be a conflict in its self hence they feel they need to put a name on thier submission calling it a gift adding a Vanilla touch to what they desire to give but on Their Own terms. I agree with a comment here that befor online there wasent the term submissive and this was only developed on here to discribe those whom desired to suplicate only sum times and most had lifes that were vanilla and dident desire to have thier desires be public or to live them in a 24/7 setting hence submissive as a word was created to better discribe this position and view of a sub culture of Our Alternate Lifestyle that injoy their kinks, most in the closet still.This leaving the slaves position as one that is choosen to reflect the choice to live as a suplicant for a lifetime. ~smiles~ again looking at the wonderful differing Dominant/suplicant points of view and how Our World of Alternating Lifestyles has evolved over the years as well as looking at the new generations of suplicant lifestylers whom are trying to find their place in the scheme of things. In all of this remember this Kinksters, stand up for Your right to have the Freedom to pursue what ever it is that You desire that is NOT of the regular runnings of every day Society, and do not be ashamed to show to the world what you are or the way you think because there are many whom gave their lifes so that you may have the freedom of thought and the ability to act on those thoughts. And be kind and tolerant to All whom are different and have differing values, morals and views no matter the reasons why and with out judgement ( *Im right Your wrong mentality). And speak to those if you are new to those that have practiced many years in Alternate Lifestyle for they are the ones whom have brought it to where it is today, right or wrong, good or bad. Thats what makes all of Us *Alternate Lifestylers in Our thinking and practices in the end.

Honor above all else!

_____________________________

♥I only need 4 kinds of Animals in My life♥
♥A Jaguar in My garage♥ ♥A Mink on My back♥
♥A few Lions in My bed♥ ♥A Jackass to pay for it all♥

♥~smiles evily~♥

(in reply to ShadowHwk)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: submission - 1/28/2004 9:22:04 AM   
Erusvi


Posts: 49
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		Dread,

It is always a pleasure to read your thoughts.

Thank you for sharing. Keep it up!

_____________________________

Schno
ErusVI
Los Angeles
Owner of dahanala
www.esenem.net
[img]http://www.esenem.net/Gallery/albums/2005_08_Savage/SM_1.thumb.jpg[/img]

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: submission - 1/28/2004 2:48:15 PM   
SherriA


Posts: 553
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare


I don't confuse dominance, with dominating; the former is a quality or trait, the latter is the actual act of dominating. I can actively endeavor to dominate a woman, but if she is not receptive to my 'overatures' then I'll fail, and probably make a fool of myself. I would find a woman who states she can submit for a 'trial period' to be suspect - though, certainly we all grow and learn through experiences.



Hm, I'm not following your thought process here, I don't think. You say that "dominating" is an active process as opposed to dominance which is a personality trait. So then, why can't submitting be an active process as well? Why can't someone actively submit for the duration of a scene or within whatever parameters the people involved agree on much like someone might actively dominate for that same type of interaction? Please note I'm not talking about personality traits, but rather the *act* of submitting, much as you mentioned the *act* of dominating. Perhaps my initial statements have been more clear if i had said "the act of submission" rather than just "submission".

And I'm also wondering how you account for d/s switches in your paradigm. I know people who do this, and again, i'm not talking about SM or topping/bottoming. They actively switch the control and power dynamics. I"m not saying that would work for everyone, nor that it should, but I do know that for some people it does. I don't really understand the need to invalidate what works for others, simply because it doesn't match one's personal paradigm, I guess.

Once more, I'll suggest that there is NO One True Way.

-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: submission - 1/28/2004 4:41:38 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 467
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Sherri,

I knew I didn't phrase that section well enough, thank you for the questions. What I was trying to illustrate was that I believe 'submission' and 'dominance' cannot exist when forced in healthy relationships. I can actively 'submit' to my boss at work, but this does not mean I would find the relationship with him either healthy, or satisfying.

I feel that a woman who can not naturally submit to me likely is not going to find contentment in submission to me. Even in the event that a relationship with a woman is found not to work out, the submissive qualities in her will not likely change when she leaves me. I simply don't believe that one can choose to be submissive, any more then they can choose to be gay or straight, or choose to enjoy mushrooms or sardines on pizza. While these are choices we make, they are based on preferences that generally are not active choices.

If a woman came to me, and said she wanted to try being submissive for a week, this implies in my mind that she wishes to 'experiment' with what she enjoys, or does not. If at the end of the week, she reflects and simply does not enjoy how it feels having given it an honest try, then I chalk the experience up to experiementation. The actual qualities of dominance and submission do not change within this woman. Perhaps she was simply not receptive to my own particular form of dominance, perhaps she isn't submissive at all - but the underlying framework of personality doesn't change on a whim.

Choosing to bottom does not equate with submission (in my mind.) I believe choosing to submit, or to dominate (in this context) is simply the active acceptance of what one finds within all along.

As to the concept of switches, I've known a few actual switches in my time. I equate the relationship a switch has with a dominant or a submissive to be similar to a transaction; someone is giving a sack of money, the other is giving a bag of (say) candy. In D/s, I am giving something, the submissive is taking something. I think of switches in terms of enjoying the transaction, regardless of whether they are giving the candy, or giving the money - it is the transaction, the sense of intensity that is relished. Other possibilities are that, say, some women are submissive to one man, but feel strictly dominant with women. In this case, the gender identified role has a strong effect on the way the switch views relationships. In any case, the underlying capacity (and natural tendency) towards dominance and submission don't actually change, but rather they simply show themselves differently towards others.

I hope this more effectively explains my thoughts.

Stephan

_____________________________

[GEEK] Me [/GEEK]
"There is always some madness in love, but there is also always some reason in madness" - Nietzsche
[image]http://img2.exs.cx/img2/7251/voltare-death.gif[/image]

(in reply to SherriA)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: submission - 1/28/2004 4:49:23 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1416
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LK

The application wouldn't be scene related, it would be about who they are as a person, and the major events in their life that made them that way. It would be more like a personal history.




That's essentially what I ask for at the bottom of my webpage. This is an excerpt:

This is what you need to do if you want to contact me. Send me an email with the subject heading "I read it all." The email should be the sort of introduction you would give someone you were sitting across a table from. I want to know who you are, how you spend your days, what your interests are outside of kink, your lifestyle situation, your experience (or the lack thereof) in the scene, what you are hoping to find (what sort of relationship/connection you'd like to make), and what you think you have to offer a dominant woman who has everything. Attach a picture so I have a face to put to a name. A pic of my face is here. [links removed by Suz]

But I want that in the introductory letter. This doesn't mean that EVERYONE who approaches me has to do it with a dissertation, as I've said - I respond well to a warm smile and an extended hand. But this is a written venue (and often graphic) and if you wish to stand out in the sea of mediocrity then you must be prepared to use the tools of the medium to achieve that goal. I think I give fairly clear instructions in how to stand out if you want to interact with me in this (written/online/email) venue. Those are the things I am most interested in about an inquirer.

But the vast majority of my inquiries read "Mistress, I love your pics" "Mistress, that's beautiful cbt i wish i could serve You" "kneeling, head bowed, awaiting your instructions" and (my personal fav) "40yo dwm into dildo training very oral IM me"; or they send me JUST a pick (it's usually the ones who are moderately physically attractive that do that). I can't help but wonder what sort of response you can make to someone who's entire (self initiated) introduction is a picture of themself.

Want to hear a real kick in the pants? When I was a pro for a living the ratio of people who were looking for professional relationships that contacted me in email was significantly higher than my "lifestyler" email. The sad truth is I got significantly better quality email from a higher percentage of well grounded individuals who were in the 'pro' scene than I ever have from the 'lifestyle' sector, in general.

<shrug> Go figga.

I'm for applications. It works for me in an email venue.

_____________________________

Suz

In honor of the impending ski season: If you're not livin' on the edge you're takin' up too much space!

(in reply to LK)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: submission - 1/28/2004 5:30:02 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1416
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare


I think that the perspective of 'seeking' a female dominant, and a male dominant to be a little different,


I quite agree with this statement and it calls to mind some observations I've made over the years about generalized differences between dom/mes, fem/male subs/slaves/whathaveyou. Might be good fodder for another thread.



quote:



Sherri, I will disagree with terming 'submission' in terms of setting a time limit, for a scene or otherwise. I do agree that one may 'bottom' for a specific period of time, but the natural interaction between people, in terms of submission and dominance, I don't think -can- be given a time clock.



I actually agree with this statement (although I don't think we're going to end up saying the same thing). I agree that there can be no time limits on what constitutes a D/s interaction. Sometimes something as brief as an eye contact from across the room could be considered a kind of D/s interaction. I admire someone who knows what they are and are not capable of giving and then pushes themself within those contexts. I have been blessed to share brief moments and hours with people who gave gloriously of themselves - and they knew from the beginning it could only be 'for a while.' From where I stood it certainly looked like submission to me. Perhaps not the kind of submission some are interested in sharing and that's ok, too. But very valid in terms of whether it was submission or not. I was fortunate to have shared in those experiences and consider myself blessed by them. They have enriched my life.


quote:


I would find a woman who states she can submit for a 'trial period' to be suspect - though, certainly we all grow and learn through experiences.




I can think of a number of reasons to want a 'trial period' (just playing devil's advocate, not saying I'd want to come along for the ride). I think my reaction would be more along the lines of "what is the root of this person's fear?" and "do I think it's worth it?" Sort of like a cost/benefit analysis, I guess. Is this someone who is afraid of their shadow and seeks to control so asks for a trial period or is this someone who is generally strong and forthright and has clearly told me they are inexperienced or not sure it is what they want (in which case they are hesitant to make a commitment they are not sure they will keep)? These things would be relevant to me in deciding whether I believed the potential returns for my trouble were worth the effort.




quote:


In the end, there are slaves who wish to view their submission as a gift. There are men who view it the same, and 'court' that gift (I've seen D/s chat rooms based on King Arthur's Camelot to this effect) and I've seen the other spectrum. In the end, again, look past the application, look past the D/s and BDSM labels if you're looking for a relationship, and you'll have more luck finding someone who compliments 'you' as a person, rather then someone to compliment 'you' as a Dom/me/S/switch/sub/slave/kinked/curious/gay/les/bi/straight/clueless




"Look past the...." I am so much in agreement with this statement that I tailored my 'application process' around it. I've often said that the biggest hurdle in finding a good match is coming to really understand what we want. Finding people to agree is easy when you know what you want to agree to.

_____________________________

Suz

In honor of the impending ski season: If you're not livin' on the edge you're takin' up too much space!

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: submission - 1/28/2004 5:36:26 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1416
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD


lifestylers whom are trying to find their place in the scheme of things.




How very well said!

May we ALL find our niche and our peace!

_____________________________

Suz

In honor of the impending ski season: If you're not livin' on the edge you're takin' up too much space!

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: submission - 1/29/2004 6:34:09 AM   
hisbijou


Posts: 42
Joined: 1/21/2004
Status: offline 		i think i have known some Dominants who allowed the submissive to think they had to "apply" by filling out the long list of BDSM experiences....it is also a way of keeping the submissive occupied and focused, while the Dominant does learn what the limits may be up front. In reality, the choosing of a partner should be no different than in a vanilla relationship...does the person have integrity? a good reputation? do they excel in the areas that you feel you are deficient? Do you have gifts, attributes that will be an addition to the Dominant's life? Can He also learn from you? it is not easy....there must be mutual respect. however, anything wonderful comes at a cost.
bijou

(in reply to crystalslave)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: submission - 1/29/2004 10:00:48 AM   
crystalslave


Posts: 7
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		This is my opinion only........

It has always been my belief that submission is a gift. The sub gives herself to the Dom, mind, body and soul and in many cases, the heart as well.

Since it is the sub giving everything to the Dom/me it is then the sub that desides on who she wants to be with, not the Dom/me. Therefore an application process is pointless. Applications are for jobs so unless someone is a ProDom/me then it is pointless.

The whole checklist thing....I have one and use it when things seem to be going well. No one should be handing over a checklist and then start playing, everything takes time. The 2 involved talk, a lot, get to know each other and then see if things will progress. Before play actually started the checklist would come out. The checklist isn't a "make or break" deal, simply what the sub would/wouldn't do and what the Dom would/wouldn't do.


This is my opinion only and hope it makes sense.

(in reply to hisbijou)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: submission - 1/29/2004 10:08:23 AM   
hisbijou


Posts: 42
Joined: 1/21/2004
Status: offline 		makes sense to me...let's face it. there are good Doms, and bad ones...good subs and wicked ones. we have to use common sense in this lifestyle, we choose each other, just as is done in the vanilla world. there are still no guarantees. what may start out as glorious and otherworldly can end up as just another pile of ashes and hurt. but i wouldn't have missed this lifestyle for the world. being heartbroken is not the worst thing that can happen to one.....missing out on love and ecstasy is the true devastation!

(in reply to crystalslave)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: submission - 1/29/2004 12:33:04 PM   
crystalslave


Posts: 7
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		exactly.... A D/s or a M/s relationship is anything the 2 involved agree on. If the Dom/me wants an application, that is up to them but not all subs agree with that. Doesn't make it wrong, just the wrong situation for the sub.

I would like to thank A/all for T/their opinions

(in reply to hisbijou)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: submission - 1/29/2004 1:21:53 PM   
Erusvi


Posts: 49
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		crystal,

quote:

It has always been my belief that submission is a gift. The sub gives herself to the Dom, mind, body and soul and in many cases, the heart as well.


This begs the question:

Do you see dominance as a gift as well?

_____________________________

Schno
ErusVI
Los Angeles
Owner of dahanala
www.esenem.net
[img]http://www.esenem.net/Gallery/albums/2005_08_Savage/SM_1.thumb.jpg[/img]

(in reply to crystalslave)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: submission - 1/29/2004 1:25:40 PM   
Erusvi


Posts: 49
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Since it is the sub giving everything to the Dom/me it is then the sub that desides on who she wants to be with, not the Dom/me.


In my experience, this doesn't hold true. I have turned down both scenes and propositions for lifelong submission because the girls, for varying reasons, did not meet my standards. There is no exclusivity to the power of choice. Everyone is able to decide who they want to be with, regardless of persuasion.

_____________________________

Schno
ErusVI
Los Angeles
Owner of dahanala
www.esenem.net
[img]http://www.esenem.net/Gallery/albums/2005_08_Savage/SM_1.thumb.jpg[/img]

(in reply to Erusvi)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: submission - 2/2/2004 12:57:54 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2326
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I know the feeling Erusvi !!! Ive had no less then 11 submissives contact Me this week and desire to give Me their gift of submission that I was forced to turn down because they did not fit My search for SM slaves for a Poly Setting and on their profiles they listed limits not included in their * gift and that they seeked their true * ONE. ( sucks thru My teeth and sighs.....) LOL!!!

_____________________________

♥I only need 4 kinds of Animals in My life♥
♥A Jaguar in My garage♥ ♥A Mink on My back♥
♥A few Lions in My bed♥ ♥A Jackass to pay for it all♥

♥~smiles evily~♥

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: submission - 2/2/2004 6:50:53 PM   
Diarmid


Posts: 1
Joined: 2/2/2004
Status: offline 		Well, after reading this whole dialogue, i thought I'd put my two cents in. To me, submission is neither a gift, nor a service. It is an integral part of calling one's self a submissive. Or a slave for that matter. When you ask to serve another, it is showing that due respect that the sub or slave has for the Dom/me or Top they offer service to. It is openly showing to the one they offer service to that they entrust themselves to that persons will (at least in my mind) So submission is not really a gift, nor is it a service. It is in all things a show of faith and trust to the One that they offer to. And it is also an icebreaker, for the act of submission takes a lot of courage and will to release one's control to Another. They are wordlessly saying: "I am yours to do with as you will, I place my trust, and well being in your hands." Anyways. That's my two bits. Ta for now.

(in reply to ShadowHwk)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: submission - 2/4/2004 9:56:49 AM   
MrKing


Posts: 27
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Reno
Status: offline 		Amen to both of you. While MaleDoms don't get nearly the same amount of interest that FemDoms do, nonetheless there's still the need to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I'm looking for a particular sort of slave right now. Age and apperance matter as I intend to use them in my artwork and as a camslave. Otherwise, I'd be far less picky about appearances.

Other requirements - they have to be bisexual, poly and understand they are at the bottom of the totem pole. They must really need to be a lifestyle slave, too, because it's an intense commitment for both of us, and I do not wish to waste my time - or inadvertantly harm someone who lied in order to gain a "situation" of what they thought to be temporary comfort.

...and so forth.

I mean, we all have dealmakers and dealbreakers. For instance, I believe anyone who thinks they can be a TPE slave and insist on bringing their children is nuts, or dangerous to my freedom.

I'm going to definitely prefer a service-oriented slave. That's where my interest and experience lies - and no, I don't just mean "oral service." I mean coffee, clean floors and washing the dogs. I'm a sadist as well, but sadism for the sake of it does not get me off; I have to be doing some form of meaningful coercion to be thrilled. Maybe that's strange, but that's me.

Likwise, I'm not habitually domineering. I can and do dominate when needed; but I don't like feeling like I have to be "pushing air" all the time, much less manipulated into grabbing a slave by the neck and putting them in their place. If I feel like that is happening, that place will be a closet with a bucket and a pail of dry dog chow. Seriously. I resent the hell out of that damn fool dynamic. I do not "play" or pretend; what I do is not fantasy, it's intended to work in the real world. So if a slave needs to feel dominated, if they feel headspace slipping, they have to be able to tell me that. In which case, no problem. Manipulation is a form of role-reversal and it just fucks up relationships.

There is a large component of Life in Lifestyle. Someone who's headspace gets broken by not being encased in rubber and forced to scrub toilets with her face on a daily basis isn't going to fit in. If she needs to be grabbed by the hair and fucked in elevators or otherwise do public edgeplay, no deal. Cute kink, but can't fit it in. Hot scenes are fun, but very often they have to be scheduled, arranged, contrived, etc; and so headspace that's dependant on scene reinforcement becomes an issue.

Obviously, all this stuff has to be checked off as part of the "getting to know you" phase.

Oh, and submission is not a gift; it's a transaction; value for value. I mean, in my context.



The key for my prosepective slave is the overwhelming need to be Owned, and know they are owned, being satisfied by many little signs of it that can be consistantly worked into a partially public relationship.

(in reply to ShadowHwk)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: submission - 2/4/2004 11:29:55 AM   
Voltare


Posts: 467
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Thank you for yoru insight, Diarmid. I think it's one of the most concise answers to this issue I've ever read.

Stephan

_____________________________

[GEEK] Me [/GEEK]
"There is always some madness in love, but there is also always some reason in madness" - Nietzsche
[image]http://img2.exs.cx/img2/7251/voltare-death.gif[/image]

(in reply to Diarmid)
Profile   Post #: 40
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