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submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 1:24:43 PM   
lil


Posts: 4
Joined: 12/26/2004
Status: offline 		This is a comment that a Dom recently made to me, I am interested in the views of other Doms to see if my opinion is drasticly different.

"When a submissive agrees to submit to a Master she becomes his slave"

lil
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 1:30:38 PM   
suberic


Posts: 172
Joined: 1/9/2005
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		Not even hardly.

IMO, a submissive is just that, it means that they agree to be the one who recieves all the activity in a sexual encounter, the bottom. There are levels of it where they will defer to their top or Dom, but it's still part-time, usually with very definate boundaries, such as not in front of others, only in the bedroom, or so on.

A SLAVE, on the other hand, has decided to be submissive all the time, and to willingly give all the decision making power to their top. To say that they are going to obey their top all the time in all situations, or to suffer the consequences.

I am a sub and sometimes I'm a top. That makes me a switch, but I know those that are subs and they don't do it all the time. I also know a slave and the mental mindset is very different, and not one that I can get into very easily.

But this is only my thoughts.

(in reply to lil)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 1:42:02 PM   
ruffnecksbabygir


Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline 		If she agrees to give herself to him completely, and not ever question him, and submit to him her mind body and soul without ever setting any limits upon him then i'd have to agree, yes, she is his slave.

i am my Master's slave, eventhough i was a submissive up to that point, upon accepting His k'olar i gave up any and all rights, and i have no limits set upon Him....not to say that the comment that person made to you is by any means correct. If you're not a slave, being collared doesn't make you one...it's absurd to assume such a thing.

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to suberic)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 2:13:24 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1199
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline 		My opinion...

A slave is one who has entered a formal relationship with an owner. Simply submitting, no matter how long the submission lasts, does not make one a slave. If you agree to be owned by another, you are a slave. If you have not agreed to be owned, you are not a slave. Slaves are owned, submissives are not.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.
http://bdsm.taggard.net

(in reply to lil)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 2:35:29 PM   
seasonedslave


Posts: 7
Joined: 5/27/2004
Status: offline 		subs chose and desire to serve, but a slave is driven by the "need" to serve. only my opinion. *nod*

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 5:27:23 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1199
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seasonedslave

subs chose and desire to serve, but a slave is driven by the "need" to serve. only my opinion. *nod*



Here is my problem with that: what does service have to do with slavery? What does submission have to do with slavery?

Slaves are property. Slaves don't always serve; some slaves are pampered, even worshipped by their owners. Slaves don't always submit; some refuse to do so. What makes one a slave is the fact that they are owned, nothing more or less.

I simply don't get why this is so understand.

Submission and slavery are not related. Desires to submit and be owned may exist in the same person, but they also may not. Service is another desire alltogether, and shouldn't be lumped in with slavery or submission.

This seems so simple and straightfoward, yet you still get people who define a slave as "a sub with no limits." That makes no sense. A sub with no limits is a sub with no limits. A slave is someone who is owned.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.
http://bdsm.taggard.net

(in reply to seasonedslave)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 5:50:09 PM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1002
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

My opinion...

A slave is one who has entered a formal relationship with an owner. Simply submitting, no matter how long the submission lasts, does not make one a slave. If you agree to be owned by another, you are a slave. If you have not agreed to be owned, you are not a slave. Slaves are owned, submissives are not.

Taggard


Taggart, yer making me want to bang my head against a wall, and not in the good way.

I don't think it's up to me to define what someone else is, nor do I think that standardization is healthy. If the Dominant is indeed in charge, it's up to him or her to bestow the title they are comfortable with, even though it makes your toenails itch ~grin~

Lily

_____________________________

If it's not fun, why bother?

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 5:51:14 PM   
MasterLJE


Posts: 2
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline 		The problem with terms, and in words in general is that no matter what the actual definition may be, it will always mean something slightly differrent to each person. Such is the problem with the terms submissive and slave.

For me, I spend more time convincing people that they do not want to be my slave then I do trying to convince them to be my slave. I have submissives and I have had owned slaves and in my lifestyle I have found that the easiest way to show a person the difference between the two terms, in my lifestyle is to explain to them that in my owned slave contracts lies the provisions that :
1) power of attorney is given to me
2) deeds to property, titles to vehicles, etc are turned over to me
3) any paychecks etc are signed over to me
4) I reserve the right to breed the females and all rights to the child/children produced from such breedings will be turned over to me by adoption

Those 4 items generally make a person realize that perhaps they actually aren't a slave afterall and would I consider them as a submissive.

The point I am making is that to me and in my lifestyle, a slave is the ultimate extreme. It is not a person that is going to college and can serve me 3 days a week. It is not a person I met last week and am seeing tonight at a private party. It is a person that is willing to give me everything that is a part of themself and trust that my decisions concerning their well-being and their futre will be made with the upmost care and concern of their well being. They accept anything and everything I lay out in the plan I have for their lives and in this are indeed owned.

Would any of the 4 points listed in my contracts hold up in a court of law? I doubt it but then this isn't about the legality of the items. It is about the depth of the core need in a person to give themselves up so totally that they are indeed owned by another.

In Old Leather Pride,
Master L.J.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 6:53:46 PM   
suberic


Posts: 172
Joined: 1/9/2005
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLJE

1) power of attorney is given to me
2) deeds to property, titles to vehicles, etc are turned over to me
3) any paychecks etc are signed over to me
4) I reserve the right to breed the females and all rights to the child/children produced from such breedings will be turned over to me by adoption





Wow. That would make ME stop and rethink what I'm asking. Very good distinction. I have a friend who is a slave who I should share that with.

Glad I'm only a switch.

(in reply to MasterLJE)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 8:29:20 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 3896
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

1) power of attorney is given to me
2) deeds to property, titles to vehicles, etc are turned over to me
3) any paychecks etc are signed over to me
4) I reserve the right to breed the females and all rights to the child/children produced from such breedings will be turned over to me by adoption


Three questions for you:
1. Since your slaves give up everything, how do you provide for them if they leave you at some point? (i know we have discussed this in another thread)

2. Have you ever had a slave breed and if so what legalities did you confront in the adoption?

3. Can someone who is mentally and physically competant give power of attorney to another? I am just curious.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .


(in reply to MasterLJE)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 8:38:54 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 3834
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		It is up to the submissive and the Dom to decide what the sub will be called.
I have essentially given up everything to my Dom yet I will never be a slave.

Just really depends on what the two want. That is why it is important to look around and find someone compatible before entering a relationship.


_____________________________

"The dumbest people I know are those who know it all."

Malcolm Forbes

(in reply to lil)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/1/2005 11:07:45 PM   
phoenix52


Posts: 179
Joined: 12/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: proudsub
3. Can someone who is mentally and physically competant give power of attorney to another? I am just curious.


Aha! A question here i can answer with some degree of certainty.... A person does not have to be impaired in any way to give a power of attorney; they just have to complete the forms with a notary or attorney (varies by state). i used to work at a mortgage company and we often had elderly clients sign a power of atty with their children, to simplify things in the event of a death or illness. We also had one gentleman in prison that gave a POA to his wife, just because it was easier than her taking forms, etc, to the prison.

(in reply to proudsub)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 5:22:35 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline 		..
quote:

Taggart, yer making me want to bang my head against a wall, and not in the good way.
.

'places a pillow against the wall so as m'Lady head isnt damaged'


_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 5:29:37 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline
hello lil...
what a fantastic first post... welcome.

As you read, You will find many differing opinions on submission verses slavery.

In the end, it comes down to one thing only. The person you are submitting to or serving at the time. Be it a long term relationship, or a one time scene... You will be whatever the Dominant Desires. You are submitting to that. Pure and simply. If the Master wants you to be slave and you submit... you accept His will. His will becomes yours. No other description or distinction matters. No others thoughts matters.

The relationship you are within determines the level of your submission. If You wish an opinion, I would say do not get caught up in what you may be, or the labels so you can adhere to them. Just be you.

Peace and love

_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to lil)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 5:34:23 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline
MasterLJE

I dislike labels, exactness... to Angel, it is an individual couples decision. But I have to say, that is probably the most beautiful definition of slave I have heard.

Thank You!

_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to MasterLJE)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 6:09:56 AM   
panthergoddess


Posts: 93
Joined: 1/11/2005
From: Bessemer City, NC USA
Status: offline 		As with anything in this lifestyle it's all highly personal and based upon each person/couple/group's dynamics and verbage.

Personally I define the titles as such.

Top-Very general term that defines the person as the one in the Dominant Role without the need to define the gender
bottom-very general term that defines the person as the one in the submissive role without the need to define the gender

(thus in topic of conversation I will lump all Doms, Dommes, Dominas, Masters, Mistresses as Top, and all submissives and slaves as bottoms)

Tops:
Dom-Male Dominant that does not own a slave long term but does have training sessions with submissives
Domme/Domina-Femal Dominant that does not own a slave long term but does have training session with submissives
(both can have one or multiple submissives and play once or over a long period of time with the same submissive(s)) For all intents and purposes....."dating"

Master-Male Dominant that owns a or multiple slave(s) long term committed relationship(s)
Mistress-Female Dominant that owns a or multiple slave(s) long term committed relationship(s)

Because I considder a collar to be as likened to a wedding band the Master and Mistress and their collared slaves are (in my eyes) "married" Though not all slaves are collared...the uncollared slave in my eyes would be "engaged"

bottoms:
submissive- Male or Female that is either submissive by nature or offers their submissive gift to a Top for use. This can be during a Play party (short term) or at regular intervals over a long period of time (once or twice a month so to speak) but are unable (for whatever reason) to committ to being owned.

slave-Male or Female that is in fact owned by a Master or Mistress either collared or not collared but the relationship and interaction between them is far more intense and steady (live in as an example)

Please forgive if my definitions rub anyone the wrong way. That is not my intent...My intent here is to share my personal thought process into definine the roles for MYSELF.



_____________________________

James "Buffalo Bill" Gumb- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told. (Silence fo the Lambs-1991)

(in reply to darkangel)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 8:21:31 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1199
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
I don't think it's up to me to define what someone else is


Nor do I. I think it is up to us to define words and use them consistently. I think it may be up to us to create a resource which allows others to do that as well.

quote:


nor do I think that standardization is healthy.


I would love to hear why you think this...

quote:


If the Dominant is indeed in charge, it's up to him or her to bestow the title they are comfortable with, even though it makes your toenails itch ~grin~


Again, and for the twentieth time, I don't care what people call themselves behind closed doors. What I would love to see happen is a dissapearance of the "submissive vs slave" questions posed by the n00b of the week. It won't dissapear by people saying things like "it can only be defined by the people in the relationship." It could dissapear if there was a comprehensive and complete reference work that once and for all defined these terms in clear and objective terms, and that reference work was one of the first things shown to people entering the lifestyle.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.
http://bdsm.taggard.net

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 8:28:05 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1199
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLJE
The point I am making is that to me and in my lifestyle, a slave is the ultimate extreme. It is not a person that is going to college and can serve me 3 days a week.


What if you met one who would agree to your 4 stipulations, but asked to be allowed to continue to go to college and only serve you three days a week? Could you see them as still being a slave, still being owned by you, but simply not required to follow through on the level of service you seem to imply has something to do with being owned?

quote:


In Old Leather Pride,
Master L.J.


Great post!

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.
http://bdsm.taggard.net

(in reply to MasterLJE)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 8:37:41 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1002
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Again, and for the twentieth time, I don't care what people call themselves behind closed doors. What I would love to see happen is a dissapearance of the "submissive vs slave" questions posed by the n00b of the week. It won't dissapear by people saying things like "it can only be defined by the people in the relationship." It could dissapear if there was a comprehensive and complete reference work that once and for all defined these terms in clear and objective terms, and that reference work was one of the first things shown to people entering the lifestyle.

Taggard


But again, you and I, who dig the shit out of each other, can't agree. And neither of us are "players" or 'newbies" or "nutters". So, if you and I can't come to any standardized agreement of what these words me, then how can we expect that others would be able to as well.

Think about this Taggart: A Chocolate bar. Think about what it is...and how it could be described. Language is infinate in it's ability to describe. To me, a choclate bar is at best silky, creamy, indulgent, naughty, sinful, sweet, decadent....the expression of what a chocolate bar to me is really endless. Well, what about the guy who doesn't like chocolate. He has at his avail any number of words to discribe what it is TO HIM.

I'm sure the dictionary definition of a choclate bar is something like : a molded slab of melted chocolate. But that doesn't begin to describe a chocolate bar for me.

Language is so much about internal and external perception. To expect to standardize Slave and Submissive in sort of strips it of all the beauty if you ask me.

L

_____________________________

If it's not fun, why bother?

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 9:22:27 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1199
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
I'm sure the dictionary definition of a choclate bar is something like : a molded slab of melted chocolate. But that doesn't begin to describe a chocolate bar for me.


But what you are describing is the difference between a definition and a description. Dictionaries shouldn't describe, they should define.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.
http://bdsm.taggard.net

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 20
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