RE: History, repeating itself (Full Version)

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darkangel -> RE: History, repeating itself (11/17/2004 1:31:38 PM)


quote:

"For believers no proof is necessary. For the unbelievers - no proof is enough."

I was 3 hours from being on the 97th floor of WTC II, my business partner, many friends and acquaintances died there that day. My city, without warning was attacked.

I also would not have invaded Iraq - I would have nuked it. Still would. The first reaction would have been a remote part of the country, with notice that unless Bin Laden was surrendered in one week it will be Baghdad. I would have continued until there were either no cities left in the Arab/Muslim world or Bin Laden was turned over. But that's just me.


There was, according to american, arab and french agencies, and news sources, warning of an imminant terrorist attack.

And really confused now... why nuke Iraq for an attack that was nothing to do with them?



Mercnbeth -> RE: History, repeating itself (11/17/2004 1:58:01 PM)

quote:

And really confused now... why nuke Iraq for an attack that was nothing to do with them?


The source of funds was Saddam. The UN "oil for food" program financed the terrorists. The information is there reference. But as I said; "For believers no proof is necessary. For the unbelievers - no proof is enough."

And even Bin Laden admitted he did not offer proper warning and was ostracized for it by his Muslim cleric friend. Which is why it released the video tape warning before the election, to placate them.

So, when his nuke or his dirty bomb or his next event occurs you will consider yourself warned. Maybe you feel we deserve it? I could provide the quote if you like. It is Bin Laden's stated position to use any and all weapons he acquires - including nuclear, against the US. That position alone warrants preemptive action, against him and his allies in the Muslim world.

I'd rather it occur there instead of anywhere in the US.



darkangel -> RE: History, repeating itself (11/17/2004 2:17:33 PM)

hmmm.... and which representatives and whos funding helped bin laden into the position he had in the first place which has allowed him to now hold such power?

I think that consequences and actions should be deeply examined.

quote:

Maybe you feel we deserve it?


I would desire you do not toy with inuendos and 'guess' about how I feel. Knowledge and interaction allows a person to learn. False accusations lead only to distrust and hatred, and You know where that can take people...


It is all very easy to place the blame onto others... be they states, countries, ethnic minorities or majorities... but in truth... we should always look closer to home to find out how the world got into this situation in the first place. Disassociation(goodness, is that a word? lol) blinds not only the memory, but the spirit also. History is a wonderful tool. One would be wiser to use it to learn to live in harmony with the enviroment that surrounds, than just point and destroy.



Mercnbeth -> RE: History, repeating itself (11/17/2004 4:16:40 PM)

quote:

quote:

Maybe you feel we deserve it?


I would desire you do not toy with inuendos and 'guess' about how I feel.


Angel~
It was a question, not an innuendo or guess. Some do feel the US deserves it. I was curious. Thank you for allowing your position to be known. It's the challenges from people like you, as committed to your position, that provide perspective and insight that I may not have considered.

Bin Laden was originally funded by he US government in Afghanistan to counter the Russian presence there. He turned against the US when we cut off that funding after the Russians left. I guess leaving him and the people of Afghanistan autonomous was in hindsight a mistake. Maybe in the vacuum of the Soviet Union's presence the US should have occupied Afghanistan. It obviously was too much to expect the indigenous people to govern themselves? But then, that would have been American Imperialism right?

I would also like to know if I made any false statements or misstated any fact. When it's my opinion I say so. When my opinion is based on a reference I site it. I appreciate any challenge because it requires I learn more. But throughout that knowledge building process on this subject my opinions have only been re-confirmed by the knowledge discovered.

My position and opinion is founded on History. The capitulation of Chamberlain helped Hitler to establish Nazi Germany. Previous and current actions of Bin Laden and the Muslim terrorists indicate to me they are a dangerous, smart, and motivated enemy. Anyone who by design sacrifices their children by strapping explosives to them and pointing them in the general direction of a "target" indicates as much. Don't you at least find it hypocritical for people to be pointing out how terrible one soldier shooting one 'alleged' defenseless person - who 15 minutes before was shooting them; while ignoring or excusing the video taped beheadings or the most recent killing of a civilian woman?

A war causes people to die. I prefer it be my countries enemy. Peace comes from one side or the other winning. I hope and support the US efforts to that end.




Estring -> RE: History, repeating itself (11/17/2004 11:54:39 PM)

The problem is that you are stating facts to people who will always blame America first. These people believe that the US is the cause of all the problems in the world through history. These are the people who say that we are no different than Nazi Germany, that we are some kind of evil imperialistic force.
Does anyone believe that if the US did not exist, that the world would be roses and rainbows? That the Muslim extremists would suddenly stop waging war against the world? We are finally standing up to this threat just as we did against Fascism and Communism in the past. And that is a fact.



darkangel -> RE: History, repeating itself (11/18/2004 4:37:06 AM)

quote:

Don't you at least find it hypocritical for people to be pointing out how terrible one soldier shooting one 'alleged' defenseless person - who 15 minutes before was shooting them; while ignoring or excusing the video taped beheadings or the most recent killing of a civilian woman?


I do not know the full facts about that particular incident... indeed, we may never know fully... as You state, the man shot was 'alledgedly' unarmed and injured... and I can honestly say that I find it disturbing knowing that he was murdered in such a situation, whether he had been shooting moments before or not. As for the US soldier who commited the act... who knows whats going on in His head? Being shot at... AND shot the day before Himself... was it right He was sent out again by His superiors? Why were they not looking out for His welfare? Is that fair? What about His mental state? It isnt so cut and dried as people would like to think.

As for the beheadings... these are fundamental groups that the Iraqi people on the whole do not wish to be associated with. Does that mean they have to 'pay' for what other groups do? Margret Hassan's death, as You have mentioned it... only caused Iraqui People to voice their revulsion at such an act. She was a dedicated aid worker who understood the iraqi people... was even married to one. There have been marches and protests before and after her death by these people You would happily 'nuke'... there are suggestions by iraqis that she should have a monument or some sort of remeberence for her works and for what has happened.

You are correct. War does cause people to die. But Peace doesnt come from one side 'winning'. Only hate and mistrust and a feeling of non closure... even oppression and a feeling of loss from the side who did not 'win'.

With that, I will say I disagree.
Peace doesnt come from winning or from war.
Peace comes from forgiveness.



darkangel -> RE: History, repeating itself (11/18/2004 5:03:54 AM)


That which one man finds a threat, may be another mans shelter. When one feels threatened it is because they fear and fear is cured by education.

I have not seen any evidence that anyone has 'blamed America', only expressing that everything is delicately linked... that nothing is perfect... that each action equals a result and issues a consequence. Blaming one group of individuals for the acts of people they would rather not be associated with only starts a 'tit-for-tat' response. Should all germans be blamed for what happened back in nazi germany?... should all jews be blamed for what happens in palestin? or all Christans and muslims in the former yugoslavia?
If that is the stance, then the world would be a larger cemetary than it is now.



Estring -> RE: History, repeating itself (11/18/2004 11:38:14 PM)

Actually, we are blaming the right people. The Muslim fanatics who if they had their way would either make us all Muslim fanatics or kill us.
And we shouldn't be blaming any of the Jews for the plight of the Palestinians. They were betrayed by the other Arabs and Yassar Arafat. I wonder if his widow will now be returning the millions he stole from his people?



darkangel -> RE: History, repeating itself (11/19/2004 1:15:34 AM)

I think that the usage of the word 'we' is misused. Maybe for 'you' and for a few others, but It would be thoughtless and disrespectful to misrepresent that all have the same attitude and thoughts.

I will end from here, out of respect to a Person who believes this conversation has & should come to an end.

Be well in Your thoughts.



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