Finding my way w/o a map (Full Version)

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MJSunshine -> Finding my way w/o a map (12/9/2005 11:46:01 PM)

How to sum up w/o leaving anything out? OK - I'm new to poly and to D/s relationships. I moved in with Master and his "alpha" a few months ago - leaving everything I had known to experience my first 24/7 D/s relationship. I don't consider myself poly but after interacting with Master and his 2 "slaves", I felt the situation would be OK and safe for me. I didn't realize how difficult it would truly be.

I'm not here to complain. I need advice on how to deal with some of the issues at hand because right now I am lonelier and more depressed than I can ever remember being.

First of all, I need to explain that it was made clear to me that I was not what Master was searching for from the very beginning. He is searching for the "complete" slave, I guess you could say - and I am not that for one reason...I insisted that I needed to have a voice. I would also say that Master's "alpha" - although referred to as "slave" and has a collar, does not submit to Master - and, since I came to live with them, has begun to exert more and more dominant behavior.

Here are a few of the issues at hand:
1. There are two distinct units in our home - them and then me. Master and his alpha have been together a little over a year - much of that time spent just the two of them. Now that there is a third living with them, most of the time is spent with them together and me a separate entity there simply to serve. There is plenty of talk about how we are a family, but I don't feel it nor do I see it. How do I include myself (or is it my place to even try to include myself???) more thoroughly so that I don't feel like a third wheel? Which leads me to...

2. Because their public relationship was previously established, publically I am a roommate and friend to them both. When we go out to dinner or to movies etc, they hold hands, kiss, snuggle - like a normal vanilla couple - and I am the onlooker. I feel like I'm living in secret...like I am a secret and that I'm not special enough to have what most people do...a public relationship. There is a definite need for discretion so coming out is not an option in the slightest. I guess I need to know if that feeling of inadequacy and of being lonely will ever go away? How have others dealt with this same issue (I'm sure I'm not the only one to have ever felt like this)?

3. This past weekend, Master took my collar away from me. He said he took it because I threw a tantrum. I did throw a tantrum. My tantrum was about jealousy in some ways - feeling like everything is always about the "alpha" and that there is never any consideration for me in the house. But I also believe that the reaction to my tantrum stemmed, in part, from frustration at the alpha's refusal to submit. Because I do submit, I am being punished for her lack of submission. And now I am dealing with a lack of trust. I feel as though at any time I will be cast out of the house because I'm not "enough" or because I don't do something exactly right. The removal of my collar was more than a punishment to me...it was a clear statement to me that I am not wanted. Nothing more has been mentioned to me about the collar - certainly not about how I could earn the right to wear it again. I don't even know what advice to ask on this one.

4. As I stated earlier, I am very new to all of this. I submit - it's who I am. However, there are many many things I do not know. There are many behaviors I've learned over the last several years - skills I had to acquire to take care of myseslf and make decisions for myself. Most of the time I do a pretty good job of submitting and doing as I'm told. Every once in awhile though, I forget to ask permission or I make a major decision w/o consulting Master and then I get in trouble. I don't want to be in trouble or cause trouble but I don't know how to break these habits and sometimes I feel as tho Master believes I should inherently know what's right and wrong. How do I go about breaking these habits?

That's probably enough for now LOL. Any advice is welcome and appreciated.



PhoenixRisen -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/10/2005 4:56:55 AM)

quote:

1. There are two distinct units in our home - them and then me. Master and his alpha have been together a little over a year - much of that time spent just the two of them. Now that there is a third living with them, most of the time is spent with them together and me a separate entity there simply to serve. There is plenty of talk about how we are a family, but I don't feel it nor do I see it. How do I include myself (or is it my place to even try to include myself???) more thoroughly so that I don't feel like a third wheel?


Seeing as how I don't know what steps have been taken so far I'll hazzard a few guesses here. Part of it could be you? I know that it's difficult to just jump in and interact as part of the "family", you feel like you are inferring yourself into a situation that is all ready established and in reality has no built in niche where you may fit. It's a problem we've had in the past, no matter what we did the new person just didn't "feel" like she belonged here, it took time and a great deal of communication. On the other hand... has there been any communication on the issue? There has to be, from everyone! You can't be the only one talking about the problems you are having, there has to be feed back.

quote:

2. Because their public relationship was previously established, publically I am a roommate and friend to them both. When we go out to dinner or to movies etc, they hold hands, kiss, snuggle - like a normal vanilla couple - and I am the onlooker. I feel like I'm living in secret...like I am a secret and that I'm not special enough to have what most people do...a public relationship. There is a definite need for discretion so coming out is not an option in the slightest. I guess I need to know if that feeling of inadequacy and of being lonely will ever go away? How have others dealt with this same issue (I'm sure I'm not the only one to have ever felt like this)?


This one is tough for me since me and mine are open about wiitwd. When our girl was living here and we went out in public, well, we publically held hands, or hubby would walk with his hand on the back of her neck...discretion is not something we do well.

quote:

3. This past weekend, Master took my collar away from me. He said he took it because I threw a tantrum. I did throw a tantrum. My tantrum was about jealousy in some ways - feeling like everything is always about the "alpha" and that there is never any consideration for me in the house. But I also believe that the reaction to my tantrum stemmed, in part, from frustration at the alpha's refusal to submit. Because I do submit, I am being punished for her lack of submission. And now I am dealing with a lack of trust. I feel as though at any time I will be cast out of the house because I'm not "enough" or because I don't do something exactly right. The removal of my collar was more than a punishment to me...it was a clear statement to me that I am not wanted. Nothing more has been mentioned to me about the collar - certainly not about how I could earn the right to wear it again. I don't even know what advice to ask on this one.


Again, I really have no idea of the dynamic there so this is just a guess... are you sure she submitted to him regularly before you showed up? What I mean is, are you sure you weren't supposed to be the one submitting? As far as throwing a temper tantrum, well, again I have to say, apparently the communication wasn't there to begin with, if it had been you would NOT have been in a mindset where you had to throw a tantrum to get your point across. As far as taking your collar... unless you were threatening me or mine, unless it was a violent temper tantrum (and it would have to have been VERY violent) I can't see taking your collar... besides, you don't take someones collar as a punishment, that's like screaming for them to be totally insecure in the relationship.

And on the other hand, it could be a serious case of "careful what you wish for"... maybe it's them that have decided that they don't want a third and don't have the balls to tell you so they find an excuse to take your collar and treat you like crap hoping you'll just go away?

quote:

4. As I stated earlier, I am very new to all of this. I submit - it's who I am. However, there are many many things I do not know. There are many behaviors I've learned over the last several years - skills I had to acquire to take care of myseslf and make decisions for myself. Most of the time I do a pretty good job of submitting and doing as I'm told. Every once in awhile though, I forget to ask permission or I make a major decision w/o consulting Master and then I get in trouble. I don't want to be in trouble or cause trouble but I don't know how to break these habits and sometimes I feel as tho Master believes I should inherently know what's right and wrong. How do I go about breaking these habits?


In other words... you are doing as you told them/Him up front that you would do, you did not claim to be a complete slave. These "behaviors" that you have learned over the years have been a survival tool, they have made it possible for you to be more independent, which I personally think is awesome... I can't stand it when a sub/slave asks permission to wipe their ass... an exageration but you get the idea... My question is this, did you know that you were supposed to ask permission for those things up front? Is it a realistic request that a person should have to ask permission up front before doing what ever it was that you did? What I mean is... I can understand getting upset if our girl just took off in one of our cars with out asking first, but if it is something where she knows what to do, has the common sense to do it and gets it done and no harm has come to anything or anyone.... then go for it, everyone has a mind and at our house everyone is expected to use it!

Aside from that, again, it's all about communication. What is right and wrong for one person may not be the same for another, how are you supposed to know what is expected of you if no one tells you? Did you tell him that you are a great psychic as well? Most likely not.... so how are you supposed to learn if you are not able to read his mind? No one knows "inherently" how to serve or please another, it is a learned skill that one aquires through communication and interaction. For instance, if I never told anyone that I absolutely LOVE to have my feet massaged there stands a good chance that no one would ever do that for me... get my point? It isn't all you, it's all of you.

Hope I/We have helped some, please feel free to set me straight if need be.

Take care of you and yours

Jewel (formerly known as ShiftedJewel)



MstrHellsFury -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/10/2005 6:34:31 AM)

since this is all about opinions...here's mine...this is not a condimnation of your situation...it's a simple thing for me to sum up...why are you there?...you state your newness not only to the lifestyle but also to the action of a poly relationship...(by your own words...you don't consider yourself to even be poly)...but what glares out most of all is the fact you state...you weren't even what he was looking for...duh...excuse me but what have I missed here...by all accounts...this relationship started out as a doomed to fail one...

we all have needs that burn within us...they drive us to do many short sighted things...but when it comes to any relationship...no matter what it's dynamics...if there's no solid ground to lay the foundation...jump to safety...or sink under the weight...

now for a suggestion...(I usually don't do this)...always begin..with the end result in mind...
this way..no matter what direction you take...you'll always know (by fact or circumstance)...when you get there...(side note)...it's a journey...make mistakes..learn..grow..experience..both bad and good...adjust along the way...and when you do find the flowers smell a little sweeter...the day shines a little brighter...and a smile becomes a regular part of your life...maybe then...you'll see at least one thing...


Fury



MJSunshine -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/10/2005 7:14:36 AM)

Thank you both for your responses. To answer some questions:

I do believe the blame for my feeling separate is due, in part, to myself. I don't expect them to do all the work in including me...however, I'm not sure how to go about including myself more w/o intruding. It is something I've discussed w/Master and he also sensed that it was a problem. I have this internal war going on inside me though about speaking up when I feel like I don't belong because, as a submissive, I'm not supposed to make it about me...right?

Supposedly yes, she did submit to him regularly (it has been mentioned on more than one occasion about how incredibly submissive she was from the beginning) although I do believe she began moving away from submission before I arrived. And yes, I am supposed to submit and I submit willingly, gladly and quietly most of the time. However, it was a big shock to me to realize I was living in a home w/a dominant couple (albeit unspoken and unacknowledged).

The tantrum consisted of me getting angry, muttering under my breath "of course it's always about her" and then leaving the house for 15 minutes in my own car w/o permission. It was not violent and I came back once I had calmed down enough to focus.

I have never claimed to be a slave. To me, the difference between submissive & slave is the right to speak my mind - to have a voice. When the collar was taken, I was told to submit or leave...that I no longer had a voice. So perhaps you are right...perhaps the intention is to make me go away???

I came here to experience D/s in what I considered a safe environment. Safe from what, I do not know. And maybe the root of all my issues is knowing that I was invited in as less than ideal and that when the ideal person shows up, where does that leave me? In short, perhaps all my issues are stemming from the fact that I have felt insecure in my footing in this relationship from the beginning and it's finally taking its toll. Ugh. So now what?



LadiesBladewing -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/10/2005 8:33:10 AM)

You mentioned another slave in this picture... where does xhe fit into all of this?

Having an alpha is an interesting situation, and very much depends on the dynamics of the household. In our household, when we -have- an alpha, the alpha is often a servant who is being groomed for the possibility that xhe may, at some point, join the Owners -- or, if xhe is called to service but not leadership, that xhe would become the majordomo, in charge of all of the household as a whole, answering only to the Owners. Therefore, there might be no sense among the other servants of the alpha's submission to us. It would be apparent to -us- in the way that xhe did hir work, and in our private interactions, but I don't think that many of the servants would see the way that xhe treated them or interacted with them in our presence. For us, this is necessary, to assure that the alpha has the respect of the servants, and that they know that xhe speaks with our voice when it comes to matters of training/discipline for our servants. In the same way, we would not discipline our alpha publically, unless xhe -severely- disappointed us in a manner that meant that xhe would lose her position as alpha. Again, time has shown us that disciplining her in public would diminish her authority with her charges... not a good situation.

It seems to me that there were mixed messages in your situation. On the one hand, you were told that your Owner's alpha was submissive -- but you don't see evidence of that, so you question it. However, perhaps she is transitioning -- in which case, she may be submissive to him, but not display that submission (and even display some measure of dominance) around you. Yielding, in this situation (and, really, in any situation where there is an alpha) means yielding not only to the dominant but to the alpha as well. On the other hand, your Owner may not know how to handle multiple individuals in his life that need attention, so he hopes to have the multiples, but to be able to continue to dedicate his attention to his alpha, and hope that the rest of you will just settle yourselves into this life to his satisfaction. In this case, it is unlikely that any amount of conversation will resolve the issues, because it is unlikely that this owner can even conceive of the responsibilities and demands on him of having multiple servants in his care -- and still having to attend to the needs of his alpha.

Since you don't discuss much about the relationship between the 3rd individual, yourself, and the owner and alpha, I really can't get much of a sense of how this dynamic is working for you. In our household, if we had a servant who had been here a while, xhe probably would have been assigned to get you acclimated to our household and how we work -- and to help you to fit in.

Our goal is to have servants who want and need to be a part of what we are, long term. We try to find out, early on, whether they'll be a good fit for us to start with, and then work to develop things as they fall out over time... and we hope for the best for all of us. If you've talked to your Master about this, and he hasn't worked on solutions, or helped you to find someone in the household to guide you (and especially since you acknowledge that you weren't what he was looking for), perhaps he has decided that the time has come for you to either make the decision to commit to the household, or to walk away and find something more suitable. Or perhaps he has decided this is too much work for him, and he needs someone to cut bait and run. In the first case (that of it being time for the servant to make a real, solid commitment), we sometimes leave these kind of decisions in our servants' hands as well -- when they are clearly struggling, and we cannot find a way to help them, or we try and they don't really seem to want to do anything to help themselves. In the second case, the decision has already been made -- it is only a question of who will cut bait and whether the individual who seems to be on the leader-line will get the message.

It seems to me that you have a decision to make. Are you ready to jump into the Void, and take a chance on this family that is being created -- or do you feel that you have nothing in common with these people enough to dedicate your life to the family that they are working on? Once you decide that, you will know what you need to do.

Lady Zephyr




tnt4us -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/10/2005 10:44:22 AM)

MJSunshine, I would like to talk to you outside of this post, if that is acceptable. If it is, feel free to email me. If not, I understand and wish you the best......if I have learned one thing of paramount importance, it is to follow the voices inside my head. And, that all questions that I have are NOT because I am new and do not understand D/s or poly. Take care and I wish you peace in whatever you choose to do.



anopheles -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/10/2005 11:44:55 AM)

MJSunshine,

There are a few troubling things I noticed in your original post. You say that your Master told you from the beginning that you were not what he was looking for, that you were not a "complete" slave? That sounds like a real rotten way to start off a relationship to me. A question, did you agree to be "trained" to be the slave that he wanted? If not, then you shouldn't have been there in the first place, and you probably shouldn't continue to stay.

Secondly, as others have stated, taking the collar away as punishment for a tantrum is in my opinion, inappropriate if he wants to keep you as his slave/submissive. Taking away the collar is basically saying, you aren't worth the trouble, in essence, that you aren't worth discipling or punishing for out of line behavior. It's saying "Get away from me, I don't have the interest in correcting you." Maybe that is your cue.

And lastly, I get the impression that your expectations of being completely included in the existing relationship that your Master had with his SO differed from what their's were. Although of course I don't know everything about your situation, it looks like you were included solely to be a servant, and not to be an equal partner in the relationship.

Again, these are only my thoughts from what you described. For someone, as you say, that is new to power exchange relationships, going Power Exhange Poly may have been a bit more than you needed right now.

Best of luck to you,
Anopheles



kyraofMists -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/10/2005 12:14:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MJSunshine
He is searching for the "complete" slave, I guess you could say - and I am not that for one reason...I insisted that I needed to have a voice.


There are many ideas and opinions on what is a slave. I am a slave to my Lord, Knight of Mists, and sharing my thoughts, feelings and opinions is something that he cherishes and actively encourages. Now, just because I offer an opinion on something does not mean he will accept it as his own or allow it to sway him in what he chooses to do. I am a slave because I allow my Lord to control whatever he wishes to control about my life not because I have no opinions of my own.

It could be that you are not a slave and wish to maintain control of certain aspects of your life, but just because you have opinions or thoughts independent of your Master does not make you less of a slave. If you are with someone who that is their perception of a slave then your ideals are not compatible and maybe seeking a relationship with someone who has the similar ideas to you would be the best course of action.

quote:


Here are a few of the issues at hand:
1. There are two distinct units in our home - them and then me. Master and his alpha have been together a little over a year - much of that time spent just the two of them. Now that there is a third living with them, most of the time is spent with them together and me a separate entity there simply to serve. There is plenty of talk about how we are a family, but I don't feel it nor do I see it. How do I include myself (or is it my place to even try to include myself???) more thoroughly so that I don't feel like a third wheel?


This could very well just be your perception of how things are. When I joined the Mist house, my Lord had been with his slave alandra since 1987. There are so many little things and ways that they interact that I had no knowledge of. This made me feel very much like a 5th wheel. However, my Lord and alandra did all that they could to make me feel included, loved and a part of their life. I got past this feeling by changing my perception of the interactions. A simple example is I used to not feel included in taking care of my Lord because when I came to visit alandra would do much of the work, cooking, cleaning, etc. I felt a little useless and not needed. Come to find out, that alandra was trying to take care of everything so that I would have more time to spend with our Lord since because of the distance our time together is so limited.

I have done this each time I felt out of place, tried to look at it from the perspective of the other’s involved or ask for their perspective.


quote:


2. Because their public relationship was previously established, publically I am a roommate and friend to them both. When we go out to dinner or to movies etc, they hold hands, kiss, snuggle - like a normal vanilla couple - and I am the onlooker. I feel like I'm living in secret...like I am a secret and that I'm not special enough to have what most people do...a public relationship. There is a definite need for discretion so coming out is not an option in the slightest. I guess I need to know if that feeling of inadequacy and of being lonely will ever go away? How have others dealt with this same issue (I'm sure I'm not the only one to have ever felt like this)?


When the three of us are in public, my intimate relationship with them both is not hidden. We have all gone to the movies and held hands together, kissed, and hugged. I can relate because when extended family is around then the behaviors are different. However, loneliness and insecurity comes from within. What are the thoughts that drive those feelings? Changing the thoughts and beliefs that cause these feelings will get rid of them. I would make a suggestion that you read LadiesBladewing’s post in “Why is it so hard to find poly”. It was an excellent post on the abundance of love in relationships.

quote:


3. This past weekend, Master took my collar away from me. He said he took it because I threw a tantrum. I did throw a tantrum.


I feel like I am missing a lot of the story here. To take away a collar because you behaved inappropriately sounds a little extreme, but I only have a small piece of the story and too little to make an educated opinion.

quote:


4. As I stated earlier, I am very new to all of this. I submit - it's who I am. However, there are many many things I do not know. There are many behaviors I've learned over the last several years - skills I had to acquire to take care of myseslf and make decisions for myself. Most of the time I do a pretty good job of submitting and doing as I'm told. Every once in awhile though, I forget to ask permission or I make a major decision w/o consulting Master and then I get in trouble. I don't want to be in trouble or cause trouble but I don't know how to break these habits and sometimes I feel as tho Master believes I should inherently know what's right and wrong. How do I go about breaking these habits?


The question is do you want to break those habits? I was an independent woman for many years before I became owned. Truthfully, I am still independent. There are many decisions that I make everyday without consulting my Lord. However, I know his expectations and I make sure that what decisions I do make will not violate any instructions that I have been given. Making these decisions do not make me less of a slave and the only way I would no longer be a slave is if I willfully disobeyed.

A final thought, knowing and appreciating the other perspectives in the relationship can go a long way in resolving many conflicts. However, if you are not what he wants for a partner and they do not meet your needs, then it will not be a satisfying relationship for all involved. Relationships are challenging and relationships between 3 or more people takes a lot of work and commitment to be successful.


Knight's kyra



MasterRobert1 -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/12/2005 6:21:35 AM)

There are some very important questions that you left unanswered. Like, what WERE you doing there? You stated that you were what the Dom was looking for, that you didn't feel that you were poly. Et cetera. Why were you there? What did you hope to gain? Was were a chance that you would become a member of this poly family? Were you simply there for the experience? Training? From their said, why were you invited in? What did they hope to gain from having you there?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/12/2005 7:02:56 AM)

Where to start...

You all need to sit down and discuss expectations. You need to be free to bring up these excellent and specific issues.

One of the hardest and least discussed parts of adding "the new chick" is how the INITIAL relationship needs to be willing to open up and share those "little things" too. It takes time. There's no way to force it, and there's no way to really make it into a contract. But it does have to happen. You have to be folded into the relationship as a whole and ALL of you make a cohesive unit together.

You've been holding a lot in, forcing yourself by saying "If I'm just good, if I just do what they say, it will work out, right?" or rather knowing that if you bring up issues, it will just make it worse.

Unfortunately...that never works.

You all need to sit down, explain each side, and discuss exactly what VISIONS you have of a perfect relationship. If their vision includes you, HOW? Do they know?

And remember- those "small things" are perfectly reasonable. I know a poly couple who has a rule about how no other partners can use HER pillow. You can use her shower, her bed, her blankets, her towels. But NO ONE sleeps on her pillow but her. It's a small silly thing right? But it's important to her and something they share and respect with eachother.



KOMA -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/13/2005 2:21:34 PM)

Find your freedom now. To wait is to further you own delusion that you are a part of that situation the way you want to be, but obviously you are not. Unless you want to draw out the pain and hurt for yourself, seek an alternative situation for yourself elsewhere...



All the best



fastlane -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/15/2005 9:29:09 AM)

I would contact tnt4us outside the board, as I have a gut instinct about her being able to give you some good advice.
Also Keanu Reeves, seems to be pointing you in the right direction.
In the end, listen to your heart, follow your instincts and don't sacrifice your own happiness for the sake of others.

My best and good luck, Kevin



Geminidream -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/15/2005 11:35:13 AM)

Everybody here has made a good point . Any way you look at it , there is major miscommunication . A poly relation , a slave relation has to have communication . We (My husband and I) believe you have to get to know each other on a person to person level , get to know them , get to understand them . In that household there is a major lack of communication , you have anger , pain , fustration and you dont know where to turn from there . If you sit down and talk to the family and you still dont accomplish a level of understanding between al of you , then , it will never work its time to move on . If you read profiles on what subs , slaves are looking for the experienced will state a honest , open , loving relationship . Its what builds a solid relationship. From what I have gathered a solid relationship was never obtained .



MJSunshine -> RE: Finding my way w/o a map (12/16/2005 7:23:58 PM)

I wanted to belatedly thank you all for your replies.

Since I originally put this up here, we all sat down and talked and, I thought, had made real progress. We all brought out some of our frustrations and areas that we all needed to work on...and I was feeling much better about the situation. And then we had another "issue" where a major portion of my trust was completely violated and I'm now struggling with whether or not I should stay or go. Master is trying his very best to help me thru this time but the alpha has strongly encouraged me to go.

MasterRobert1 asked some good questions that should be answered.

Why was I here to begin with? I came here to learn, to be "trained", to experience D/s for the first time in RT, to understand this side of me that I have just begun to discover, uncover, explore. I wanted to feel safe to submit and i wanted to give over control to someone i could trust.

Why was I invited? Frankly, I was invited because they could both agree on me. It was sort of a compromise between the two - that's my understanding anyway.

Yes, I made some interesting choices by coming here - I won't say mistakes or wrong choices. One of them was that I did not take the time to really get to know the people I would be living with. And even if I had, I don't know that I would have chosen any differently than I did - I don't think the problems we're having now would have been discovered until after I moved in (everyone on best behavior...you know the drill). However, the choice was made and now I have to figure out how to fix it so that I can find sunshine again...because MJSunshine ain't feeling so shiny at the moment.



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