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RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 6:26:02 AM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

If you really feel the need to have fur adorning your body, take a hunter's safety class, go on a hunt, EAT the MEAT, tan yourself a hide and make a coat or stole.

mistoferin


i have had deer meat -- never again. How completely gross i thought it was. i know hunters serve a purpose in keeping down the deer herds, but i'd never accept such behavior from a Man i considered as my Dom or Master. i find it incredibily cruel.

Minks, on the other hand, would probably die out if they were not tended to by their farmers. Release a farmer's stock of domesticated minks and they' probably be lucky to live a week. It is pretty obvious there is a much larger mink population because they are farmed than would exist if they were just part of nature's food chain.

In Florida, they farm catfish; once again, increasing the population of catfish far above what would otherwise occur in nature. i personally do not see why a farmed animal must be eaten before some people will accept that its death was accepable.

As i said on another post, animal cruelty seems evil to me and i think much stiffer sentences should be handed down than we currrently use. When i lived in Cincinnati, dog fighting was a big sport. Cock fighting is big in Miami. The people involved have no fear of being caught because --- apart from losing their animals -- they face nothing more than a small fine.

Erin, we may disagree on "the ethical treatment of animals" but i assure you i am in complete agreement with thse who oppose animal cruelty.

Never fear, though, i cannot afford a refurbished mink coat. i just thought the idea was excellent and if i win the lottery, i shall buy a refurbished, not new, mink coat.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/20/2005 6:35:04 AM >

_____________________________

Resolve to be tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving, and tolerant with the weak and the wrong. Sometime in your life you will have been all of these."
~ Bob Goddard ~

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 6:32:11 AM   
cellogrrlMK


Posts: 672
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Geezuz pink.... before you put your foot any further down your throat you should really think about what you post before you post it.

*walks off, shaking head*

_____________________________

There's too much Blood in my Caffeine system!

(in reply to pinkpleasures)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 7:01:00 AM   
smilezz


Posts: 489
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		I think this is another one of those topics that people are just going to agree to disagree with. I admit that i eat meat...i have worn fur...i feed our babies(cats) Iams. I also do not like the cruel things that people do to animals...kids...trees...deserts...oceans/lakes.....the FDA allowing a certain amount of bugs into our foods...............................and to each other.
I do what i can and live with my decisions and hope i make the right one(s).

Happy Friday y'all!!

~smilezz~

_____________________________

"Please excuse my Sense of Justice...it's the only thing that saves You from the Slaughter"

"What you cannot enforce, do not command - Sophocles"



(in reply to Mandalin)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 7:07:03 AM   
cellogrrlMK


Posts: 672
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		smilezz, I couldn't have said it better myself, thank you!

cello

PS... I wish you could see my knife... I paid way too much for it but it's sooooo pretty!

_____________________________

There's too much Blood in my Caffeine system!

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 7:14:27 AM   
smilezz


Posts: 489
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		*grinz*

Ahhhh, nothing like a girl with a weapon <eg>

~smilezz~

_____________________________

"Please excuse my Sense of Justice...it's the only thing that saves You from the Slaughter"

"What you cannot enforce, do not command - Sophocles"



(in reply to cellogrrlMK)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 7:21:34 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 1379
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

i know hunters serve a purpose in keeping down the deer herds, but i'd never accept such behavior from a Man i considered as my Dom or Master. i find it incredibily cruel.


Ok, let me see if I have this straight. You think that the ethical management and culling of a herd of animals to provide sustenance and prevent unnecessary suffering and death due to starvation, car/animal encounters because we continually build and broaden our habitat all the while decreasing theirs is incredibly cruel. Yet you think it is appropriate and acceptable to purposely raise an animal in horribly deficient conditions and kill them en masse in bizarre and cruel ways or bash baby seals heads just for the purpose of your vanity.

Am I really getting your message straight? Come on pink...you are an intelligent woman and I know that you can think this through farther than this.

quote:

Minks, on the other hand, would probably die out if they were not tended to by their farmers. Release a farmer's stock of domesticated minks and they' probably be lucky to live a week.


If there were no people who placed such a high priority on being en vogue we wouldn't really have a need for mink farms now would we?

quote:

Never fear, though, i cannot afford a refurbished mink coat. i just thought the idea was excellent and if i win the lottery, i shall buy a refurbished, not new, mink coat.


As I stated earlier, if you wear a fur coat you are supporting the fur industry...it matters not whether it be new or used. You are saying loud and clear "I think slaughtering animals for their skin is ok", thereby condoning and perpetuating it's continutation.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
erin


There are no victims here.....only volunteers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

(in reply to pinkpleasures)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 8:53:57 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3610
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
If you agree that animal cruelty is hideous and that people who neglect and abuse animals are awful people, why then would you choose to support them with your own money?

Obviously I don't think USING animals is necessarily neglect or abuse, whether its using them as companions or using them for their products. Like I said I know my actions and feelings fuzzes the lines, but at least I know where I stand.

quote:


Could you please clarify this statement? What exactly does this mean? For food? A new shirt or jacket? Tattoo purses? What kind of human products do you think it would be acceptable to sell and use?

All of the above and more. Whatever useful things that could come from human bodies.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 9:24:24 AM   
cellogrrlMK


Posts: 672
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Ok, let me see if I have this straight. You think that the ethical management and culling of a herd of animals to provide sustenance and prevent unnecessary suffering and death due to starvation, car/animal encounters because we continually build and broaden our habitat all the while decreasing theirs is incredibly cruel. Yet you think it is appropriate and acceptable to purposely raise an animal in horribly deficient conditions and kill them en masse in bizarre and cruel ways or bash baby seals heads just for the purpose of your vanity.

Am I really getting your message straight? Come on pink...you are an intelligent woman and I know that you can think this through farther than this.

If there were no people who placed such a high priority on being en vogue we wouldn't really have a need for mink farms now would we?

As I stated earlier, if you wear a fur coat you are supporting the fur industry...it matters not whether it be new or used. You are saying loud and clear "I think slaughtering animals for their skin is ok", thereby condoning and perpetuating it's continutation.


Thank you erin..... EXACTLY!!!!!!

cello

_____________________________

There's too much Blood in my Caffeine system!

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 9:28:14 AM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 1466
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		As people sacrifice themselves for the good of others, animals must do it to. A few suffered and dead is better than releasing products that kill them all. Like it or not life is like chess and sacrifices must be made to win.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to Mandalin)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 9:56:42 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline
I would be interested on how many people here would like to be experimented on themself, or have considered being part of medical experiments..

I would be interested in those people who would be interested in using animal organs in transplants.

And stem cells.

How about designer babies?

Or even worse - donor babies?

Lets try remembering all those animals near or extinct because of fur trade.

And the trade of exotic pets from the wild.

And lets remember that mink tend to wipe out other native species when released into the wild.

And the realisation that testing medically on animals has now been pretty much determined to be irrelevant to further research.

How about genetic clones?

I am pretty shocked at the lack of understanding of certain proceedures. But as Em said - most people prefere to block their senses -

I am fortuante - I live in the country and I can purchase my meat and veg from sources I know. Yes, I eat meat - would I eat processed meats? No. 'Lazy crops?' Nope.

How about chocolate?

Coffee?

Lets have a think about the effect on rubber and PVC.

Ah - and the ivory trade - yes...

And as for second hand fur - wow - odious

_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 10:02:21 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2245
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		On refurbished fur:
I see what you're saying about it making others want them. I was thinking in terms of taking out of hte production/consumption cycle and not -funding- the fur trade, but I definatly see what you're saying.

I'm coming from a different perspective in that the fur I use is for reinactment. It is -very- unlikely that someone will see me wearing my mock squirel lined cape and desperatly want one, given the situations that I wear it in, and even more likely that if they -do- they'll buy new fur. Similarly, the people I reinact with either tend to raise their own animals for their fur and meat, or only buy fur that comes from animals killed for meat. We largely work with rabbit, which is cheapest and a fairly good immitation for other furs.

However, I hadn't thought about the fact that an observer wouldn't realize you hadn't bought the coat new. Thank you for giving me something new to think about.

Re: Problems with hunting.

I don't get it. I find hunting to be one of the -best- ways to get meat. Partially because it makes the hunter deal with the fact that he/she is eating a formerly living thing.

When I was young, my parents took my sister and I to the fair to buy a cow. We bought it at auction. I got to meet and pet the cow. They then took us to the slaughterhouse to watch the steps that turned cow into meat. We didn't watch the killing (I was maybe....8 or 9 at the time) but we did see the dead cow, and dead cow parts.

I've had peopel tell me it was horrible of my parents to do this, but I find it's helped me to -know- that I'm eating something that was alive. I am not as proactive as I could be in making sure my meat comes from ethical slaughter houses, but at this point in my life it is not economically fesable. I do what I can and I am aware of what I am buying into, at least, with the food I eat.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 10:06:04 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2245
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I would be interested on how many people here would like to be experimented on themself, or have considered being part of medical experiments..


I have, and would.

quote:


I would be interested in those people who would be interested in using animal organs in transplants.


Would, assuming the animals could be raised ehtically.

quote:


And stem cells.


Would rather use stem cells from aborted fetuses. To me, it's kinda like killing a cow for the hide and letting the meat go to waste. The fetus is dead. Use what of it you can. Though I feel this way about adult humans too.

quote:

And the realisation that testing medically on animals has now been pretty much determined to be irrelevant to further research.


This isn't true. It's true for many drugs because bodies obviously don't react the same. It isn't true in tests for things such as genetic inheritance and gene expression. Whiel we can't learn about spesific human gene expression, we CAN learn how it works. Learning the way it owrks makes it possible to apply it to humans.

quote:

And as for second hand fur - wow - odious[/center][/font][/size]


Also a good way to get fur without buying into the production/consumption cycle of fur. One obtains fur without giving a fur company money. Similarly, I will not buy Gap clothes from Gap. I will buy Gap clothes from the thrift store. The money doesn't go to Gap.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to darkangel)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 10:07:27 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 2326
Joined: 6/18/2004
From: Palos Verdes Estates
Status: offline
quote:

I would be interested on how many people here would like to be experimented on themself, or have considered being part of medical experiments..


this slave was part of a medical experiment in utero. and yes, it was tested on laboratory animals too. no choice in the matter, yet this slave has to live with the consequences and complications that it caused.

_____________________________

Merc & beth

"The words printed here are concepts. You must go through the experiences." - Saint Augustine

(in reply to darkangel)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 10:09:36 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3610
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
I would be interested in those people who would be interested in using animal organs in transplants.

And stem cells.

I support it, and I'm an organ donor myself.
quote:


How about designer babies?

I'm fairly torn on this. I'm somewhat torn on the entire concept of fertility treatments. With so many children already needing homes, with treatments causing far too many multiple births, it's a tricky place.

That being said, can we justify changing a persons life before it begins? Would we eliminate cancer if we could? Would we abort babies because of certain defects? Will we lose geniuses (as many in history were certainly born with genetic defects) or will we be allowing them to be created more? Does it propogate the concept of conformity? Does it support the idea that babies are the next big accessory to a happy life for the parents? When does the line cross between correcting albino-ism and making a blue-eyed baby?

Lots of questions, I don't have many answers.
quote:


Or even worse - donor babies?

Not sure what you mean by this? I think surrogate mothers is a pretty good idea.
quote:


I am pretty shocked at the lack of understanding of certain proceedures. But as Em said - most people prefere to block their senses -

Well when I had to take my ethics course we went through a pretty rigorous section on animal treatment. It was after that when I realized I'd be ok with eating and using animal products only if I didn't learn too much about how it got to my stores. I don't even like walking through pet stores since I think those conditions are borderline.

(in reply to darkangel)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 10:16:18 AM   
Quivver


Posts: 664
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Rural OZ
Status: offline 		IMHO, society asked, science delivered, the drive is economical.
The *Choice* is ours, be careful of what we wish for.

Q

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 10:42:48 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline
quote:

quote:


And stem cells.


quote:

Would rather use stem cells from aborted fetuses. To me, it's kinda like killing a cow for the hide and letting the meat go to waste. The fetus is dead. Use what of it you can. Though I feel this way about adult humans too.


I am not speaking specifically of an already dead fetus. I am suggesting a fetus grown specifically for medical experiments.

I personally would not use anything harvested from a fetus or human if it was taken without their consent.

_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 10:44:51 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline
quote:

This isn't true. It's true for many drugs because bodies obviously don't react the same. It isn't true in tests for things such as genetic inheritance and gene expression. Whiel we can't learn about spesific human gene expression, we CAN learn how it works. Learning the way it owrks makes it possible to apply it to humans.


It is true about genetic inheritance. But genetic testing is just that - testing - I would still not support the disection of an animal purely for genetic testing as it isn't necessary.

_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 10:47:52 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I would be interested on how many people here would like to be experimented on themself, or have considered being part of medical experiments..


I have, and would.



Against your consent? Sorry I wasn't clear.

_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 10:50:28 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 801
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		I think it's a little funny to hear an argument about the ethics of wearing fur in a forum in which a large amount of people rely on leather products for toys, bondage equipment, and clothing.

Even though pink's post seemed callous, it really is a very logical argument. Of all the horrible things that happen in the world, of all the causes that we could champion, it seems that many people would rather throw paint on someone's fur coat than put an end to the abuse of children in various sweatshops around the world. Some people will put animal rights before human rights or civil rights...and to me, that just seems ridiculous.

I wonder if the paint throwing activists are using a water pased paint or if they are using a oil based paint that will end up polluting the environment and strengthening our dependence on foreign oil.

I think its funny that animal rights activists will boycott tuna companies because of the dolphins getting caught in their nets. Who's fighting for the tuna? Why aren't these guys out boycotting diamond imports? (Want to see suffering? Look at the working conditions for a person in a diamond mine.) Why aren't these guys out fighting to help people live above the poverty line?

I would like to imagine that my leather is grown on trees and that all the food I consume comes from vast herds of pre-packaged, free range meats.

I would like to imagine that any medications I have ever taken were first tested on well-paid. willing college students who had no adverse reactions whatsoever to the testing.

I will imagine that engineers were so incredibly skilled and thorough in their design that no testing was required, should I ever receive an artificial heart.

I would like to see an effort to minimize the suffering of animals that are used for testing or for their commercial value, but I don't feel that effort should supercede efforts to decrease human suffering.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Iams animal testing - 8/19/2005 10:58:12 AM   
darkangel


Posts: 2339
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

And as for second hand fur - wow - odious


Also a good way to get fur without buying into the production/consumption cycle of fur. One obtains fur without giving a fur company money. Similarly, I will not buy Gap clothes from Gap. I will buy Gap clothes from the thrift store. The money doesn't go to Gap.


I don't even buy products from gap second hand.
What has suffered, already suffered. What and who have died, already dead.
The blood is already there and stained. Thinking that because its a second, relinquishes one from the pain in the past is irrelavant. Beside, tax is still being earned in most cases for your governement, which is again a tax on what has been murdered or lost(be it workshops and slave labour).

There are many alternatives to fake fur, and ok - so it might not be exactly the same and if you can live with the fact that something has been killed - no matter how humanely - then thats your choice. And its my choice not to be impressed by it or feel any kind of respect towards a person for doing such an act.

Really meaning no offense to you perverse - I think you are great - and your posts are fantastic - but using fur IMO is just wrong.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

Blessings
~Angel~

a belle fille violente
Do not scorn, or frown because I walk a different path to you...

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 80
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