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To cum or not to cum, that is the question


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To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/9/2005 12:53:39 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 3240
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Montréal - Canada
Status: offline 		I’ve noticed a steady stream of threads that deal with issues such as orgasm denial, non-sexual servitude, chastity devices, even (symbolic) castration.

Though they are not aspect of WIITWD that I am usually inclined to explore, I do see how these acts can work in effectively supporting a FD/s relationship.

I’ve also observed that the majority of these threads are started by submissive males. Many of them, as well as other submissive men that I have chatted with, have expressed that they feel completely controlled by a woman when she dominates them this way.

I guess from my point of view, I would see putting a man’s member out of commission as depriving myself of pleasure, and I’m not into denying myself pleasure ;) I’ve seen similar sentiments echoed by many Dommes on these boards.

So here is my question. For you Dommes that engage in non-sexual servitude or in which you render a man’s unit useless, what is in it for you? I’m interested in understanding.

- LA

_____________________________

An iron hand in a velvet glove.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/9/2005 1:05:00 PM   
LadyJulieAnn


Posts: 384
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline 		Like you, I certainly wouldn't want to render my sub useless to me. However, I do enjoy creating some sexual tension in the form of orgasm denial within the course of a scene, or in the days before I get to see him. I don't go overboard with denial, because I would get bored eventually and he would most likely explode. I enjoy making my sub lick up his cum, so cumming would definitely be in his future at some point.

I have no interest in chastity devices and do not use them.

Be well,
Julie

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/9/2005 3:02:01 PM   
KarbonCopy


Posts: 456
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Edmonton AB
Status: offline 		Well I suppose that if your sub doenst particularily like the taste of his cum, you could always work him up to orgasm and bring him down. Do that 15 times or so, he'll be so dazed that he'll do anything to cum.

Then tell him if he does so then he has to lick it all up.

_____________________________

I am KarbonCopy's signature

(in reply to LadyJulieAnn)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/9/2005 3:16:13 PM   
MaitresseEden


Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

guess from my point of view, I would see putting a man’s member out of commission as depriving myself of pleasure, and I’m not into denying myself pleasure ;) I’ve seen similar sentiments echoed by many Dommes on these boards.

So here is my question. For you Dommes that engage in non-sexual servitude or in which you render a man’s unit useless, what is in it for you? I’m interested in understanding.


yea!.. I want to know this too..

Ms. Eden

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/9/2005 3:34:16 PM   
balletsissypa


Posts: 22
Joined: 12/11/2004
Status: offline 		hello all. i am one of those subs who looks for chastity and denial. As a sub crossdresser i consider myself more of a lesbian anyway so not being able to use my member is a plus for me as it makes me pleasure my Domme as a girl would. It is understandable that She would want a real one and i am ok with Her having a boytoy or Master for that. When i am locked up i become very submissive and feminine. i get very focused on pleasing and serving.
kimmy
xoxoxoxoxo

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/9/2005 5:55:25 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 3240
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Montréal - Canada
Status: offline 		Well kimmy 2 things come to mind from your post.

The first is that you see yourself more as a lesbian then a straight man (which is totally fine by me btw) so you aren't trying to fit into the role of a male submissive but rather that of a female lesbian submissive, therefore, you not having a penis to play with would technically not be an issue.

The second thing is that if the woman that you submitted to did desire a male energy, she would go elsewhere to find it. That is an interesting concept. I guess because I have my boy as a primary and he can most definitely fulfill my needs in that department, I wouldn't be at such a loss if I symbolically castrated a submissive (what I mean by that is ignore/hide/render useless his penis) because I did have an outlet.

So that leads me to a second question for this thread then. Could a woman have a male sub that was symbolically castrated as her primary or even her one and only? And if so, how do you do it? What do you get out of it?

- LA

_____________________________

An iron hand in a velvet glove.

(in reply to balletsissypa)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/9/2005 6:13:08 PM   
SadisticPrincess


Posts: 87
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline 		A former slave of mine said "control the orgasm and you control the man". An interesting viewpoint, certainly, but since I do not use my submissives sexually, and I hate oral sex, what is my motivation for remembering to let the boy out of chastity? A good friend makes extensive use of chastity devices on her husband and her boy, and has kept slaves in chastity for months, saying it makes them very subservient, and almost feminine.

I have exactly NO interest in a feminized male. If I want to play with girls, that's what I do.

Yet chastity is an incredibly common fantasy! I adore CBT, and locking the male into one of those devices is an absolute thrill, but dealing with it on a long term basis? I would feel that I am depriving myself of the immediate availability of the cock. Am I wrong?

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/9/2005 7:14:37 PM   
Niran


Posts: 70
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		I do use orgasm control, but not denial. I have e on a 10/1 ratio. For 10 of mine, he gets one. Not an unattainable goal, and that way he has to work. Its total self-motivation. If he feels the need, then he has to work for it. If he slips (as he is new to this, and still learning, I merely add the balance. For example, he slips at seven, I add three. If I dont think it was an accident (and once, it was not) punishment was harsh, lol.

Would I want to render him useless? Noooo...I like sex a little too much. However, if the submission was non-sexual? Hn...I dont know. Right now, I do not feel that bringing in another person is something that either of us are ready for.

N

*edited for typo*

< Message edited by Niran -- 7/9/2005 7:16:23 PM >

(in reply to SadisticPrincess)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/10/2005 5:39:38 AM   
balletsissypa


Posts: 22
Joined: 12/11/2004
Status: offline 		Being kept in chastity does for many make them feel more feminine and for almost all make them much more submissive. THe statement of control the orgasm control the man is very much true. i have heard it is the other way around for women but have no real idea. i guess since sex is not the incentive for letting the out for some, then maybe try and consider other things. i know that some Mistresses enjoy making thier slaves eat their own cum. Most kept in chastity tend to have much larger orgasms and amounts of cum when they do get release. Having them tied up and finally being let out of chastity and brought to orgasm..beg to orgasm and eat it, and then feeding it ot them may fullfill a Misterss who enjoys that. guys tend to get very masculine and dominant after they cum so making them eat it and then teasing them reminding them of how much they were begging to eat it can be very humiliating for them. Of course, before you release them frombondage they get put right back in the chastity again:-) Just a thought....trying to help spread chastity as a form of traiin for all subs:)
kimmy
xoxo

(in reply to SadisticPrincess)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/10/2005 5:44:21 AM   
balletsissypa


Posts: 22
Joined: 12/11/2004
Status: offline 		Lady Angelika,
You are right that being a lesbian slave girl i am better off without being able to touch or use it. It does make me feel more feminine not being able to do that. It really is a different situation with me i guess. i mean i am more than happy to use any toys on Her that She desires as well as serve in the bedroom when She is with a man whether it is simply to fetch things or to participate to increase Her pleasure. Atthe moment i am single so i have not had the opportunity to try and convert the fantasy into reality. i have endure long periiods of chastity though with a femdomme so i am experienced there, i had just never served Her sexually before it ended.
kimmy
xoxoxo

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/10/2005 7:09:20 AM   
KarbonCopy


Posts: 456
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Edmonton AB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: balletsissypa

Being kept in chastity does for many make them feel more feminine and for almost all make them much more submissive. THe statement of control the orgasm control the man is very much true. i have heard it is the other way around for women but have no real idea. i guess since sex is not the incentive for letting the out for some, then maybe try and consider other things. i know that some Mistresses enjoy making thier slaves eat their own cum. Most kept in chastity tend to have much larger orgasms and amounts of cum when they do get release. Having them tied up and finally being let out of chastity and brought to orgasm..beg to orgasm and eat it, and then feeding it ot them may fullfill a Misterss who enjoys that. guys tend to get very masculine and dominant after they cum so making them eat it and then teasing them reminding them of how much they were begging to eat it can be very humiliating for them. Of course, before you release them frombondage they get put right back in the chastity again:-) Just a thought....trying to help spread chastity as a form of traiin for all subs:)
kimmy
xoxo


Thats actually a really good explination of how we males work. I mean I know that I'm incredibly submissive and like you mentioned, much more "feminine", before I orgasm. Then after I orgasm, it all kind of flys out the window.

Perfect example of that was when I was ordered one night to kneel in front of Mistress as she layed on her back, and get myself off, and cum all over her stomach. Only catch was, she told me that after I did that, that I was to lick it off her (she gets a kick out of it, cause she knows how humiliated it makes me feel).
I was all gung-ho about making her happy, and doing as she said, but after I came, my want and desire to blindly do whatever I am told was gone.

Needless to say, she realized what had happened, and pulled my face into her stomach and I had no choice. It almost instantly brought back the sense that I was to do as I was told, and that masculinity kind of flew out the window, as my submissivness came back.

_____________________________

I am KarbonCopy's signature

(in reply to balletsissypa)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/10/2005 9:44:44 AM   
Euryanx


Posts: 96
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Philly, PA
Status: offline 		The statement "control a man's orgasm and you control the man" is definitely true. It's the surest way for a woman to keep her submissive at her beck and call.

I met my first Female Domme through Collarme on Friday night. She used "orgasm control" quite well on me. To start we went to dinner, and out to a bar to shoot some pool, and really had a fun time together. We probably looked like two vanilla people you'd spot anywhere. She did not play the super bitch role and try to order me about. She was extremely laid back and very sweet, although I could tell she was definitely a strong person. Unlike some Domme's, she didn't feel the need to flex her muscles and prove how Dominant she was by playing mind games with me out in public. Definitely a very secure, very together woman. All of which I liked, because I prefer to keep D/s play in the bedroom. Lucky for me, she seemed the same way too, so we were off to a good start.

It wasn't until we got home and were in her bed that she really let loose and we both discovered that we had quite a bit of chemistry together. We started out slow, again like any vanilla couple, cuddling and kissing. Slowly, quite naturally, our D/s sides took over... and she became more aggressive and I became more submissive. I gave her several orgasms with my fingers and tongue. All the while she kept me very aroused, constantly on the verge of orgasm, but never letting me cum.

After 4 hours of this (from 11pm till 3am), I was going completely out of my mind, begging her to let me cum. All of which was music to her ears and which served to make her even more Domme. She told me since this was our first time together she would not let me penetrate her, nor would she penetrate me. We would just play. And she played quite creatively, getting on top of me, and simulating making love to me with a strapon... grinding her hips into me... throwing my legs up over her shoulders... flipping me around on the bed... all of which was driving me wild with lust. She had me begging, pleading with her to make love to me, but she just smiled and continued to tease me all night long. While she was doing so, she'd make little comments like, "Maybe I'll let you cum in two weeks" or "Maybe in a month." All of which had me in agony, but at the same time, turned me on incredibly. There is something about being highly aroused, and denied, that just drives a man crazy. She had me begging, pleading, for release... she had me in the state of mind that I would have done ANYthing for her just to get off. But she was firm, and refused, continuing to tease me all night long, while I gave her orgasm after orgasm after orgasm...

The next morning when we woke, we started again. By this time my balls must have been turning bright blue. Before we got out of bed, she told me that she wanted me to promise not to masturbate during the week, and if I did, we'd go a little bit further next time we got together. I honestly told her I would not be able to make it through the week without release, not the way she had me so wired. So she told me I was allowed to masturbate... all of which I thought was quite merciful on her part. We didn't have any chastity devices, nor did we even discuss them, and she was realistic to know that as soon as i left her house, i was so turned on, undoubtedly i'd touch myself. She'd pushed me to the edge... she'd teased me for hours... and she'd gotten what she'd wanted, several orgasms, my submission, and my pledge to come back next Saturday... so she let me masturbate, and then she went off to work.

She did all of this by controlling my orgasm. All in all, I thought she was incredible, and can't wait to see her again.

S.

(in reply to KarbonCopy)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/10/2005 10:55:15 AM   
beheah606


Posts: 21
Joined: 2/13/2005
Status: offline 		Some of you say that making a sub go with out orgasm or putting him in a chastity device and even cutting it off does leave anything for you. If you don't like oral then why not make them buy a strap-on and have them use it on you and maybe even you use it on them

(in reply to Euryanx)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/10/2005 1:45:23 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 1216
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		If We limit sexual servitude to *penetration*, then I can see where the confusion may be regarding the use of chastity devices and orgasm control.
I am firmly in the camp of "control the orgasm and control the boy". There are many things I want other than penetration or even oral. Perhaps I am beyond My sexally driven days. And, believe, Me I was there!
So when many people refer to non-sexual servitude I always feel like they have a picture of a boy running around the house doing the chores, but never interacting in an intimate way with his Lady. Just someone to fetch and carry?
What about bathing Me, blow drying Myhair, doing My nails, giving Me a full body massage? This requires a great deal of intimacy for Me. What about just sitting at My feet and watching a movie with Me? What about being out in public together? It takes a lot to maintain the current of D/s without being obvious about it. A chastity device is a good thing there also. A boy is going to act properly in a vanilla setting also, because he and I both know he is wearing someting under his clothes that nobody else can see.
These instances may not be directly sexual, but they certainly are sensual, and I love these services. It has been My experience if the boy is not in chastity, or doesn't have a firm sense of his place, he will end up viewing these services to Me as an inviation for more. Suddenly you feel the hard cock pressing into your back, or the stolen kiss on the neck.
If there is no permission, it is not allowed. It is very easy to get carried away. It is much easier to remember if ol' tricky dick" is locked up. It has been My experience that a chastity device does make a boy more submissive.
I am probably much like the Dominant that Euryanx described. It sounds alot like My general personality. But, lucky for him I was not that particular Domina, because he would not have ended up in My bed the first night! *W* Nice to hear you both had such a great time!
If one is with Me, when it is time to cum, I will say so, and it will be done in the way the best suits My mood of the moment.

_____________________________

Dusty
Please do not get caught in that place where you think you know. Zen
Don't put Me up on a pedestal if all you want to do is look up My skirt
http://www.nitetflirt.com/Dustygold Hypnosis available
http://www.geocities.com/goddessdustygold

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/10/2005 11:43:55 PM   
GentleLady


Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I guess from my point of view, I would see putting a man’s member out of commission as depriving myself of pleasure, and I’m not into denying myself pleasure ;) I’ve seen similar sentiments echoed by many Dommes on these boards.

So here is my question. For you Dommes that engage in non-sexual servitude or in which you render a man’s unit useless, what is in it for you? I’m interested in understanding.
I have been approached by submissives who want chastity and no use of the penis. This does not do anything for Me. However, it has been My experience that chastity devices do keep the submissive feeling his submission (if you will pardon the double wording) by keeping them aware of their sexuality and their place. As soon as he gets aroused he is reminded of who controls his orgasms. He knows that if he behaves himself he can earn the reward of cuming and it tends to keep him focused IMHO.

I LIKE having the male appendage fully operational and functioning. I LIKE seeing how hard he can get and for how long. I LIKE seeing him writhe and hearing him beg. My last submissive enjoyed chastity and I would put him in the device for weeks at a time. However, he also had to stroke for an hour every day. I would also take it out and play with him until he was ready to explode then wait for him to get soft and put him back in chastity. Every time we did sensual things he would be hard and wanting. By the time I allowed him to cum he would have multiple orgasms and be drained.

I do not use a chastity device with My current primary boy because he is still learning that it is okay to be aroused and not something shameful. This also means that he gets hard every night before sleeping and usually several times each evening. Every few weeks he is allowed to orgasm and he eagerly looks forward to it. I mention this because in his case the chastity device is in his mind (his religious upbringing) and it has the same effect as a physical device.

Side note: Both boys really enjoyed wearing a fake cock to penetrate Me vaginally. They both said they enjoyed it because it allowed them to focus more on giving Me pleasure.

My apologies if I wandered somewhat from your question LadyAngelika. I started thinking about your question and My mind meandered down its own paths.

Gentle Lady

_____________________________

All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/11/2005 3:41:48 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 3240
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Montréal - Canada
Status: offline
quote:

The statement "control a man's orgasm and you control the man" is definitely true. It's the surest way for a woman to keep her submissive at her beck and call.


That might be true in some dynamics. Though to be quite honest, that isn’t how it works for me. Controlling a man via his orgasm wouldn’t keep me interested for very long. Controlling a man psychologically on many levels, not there is something more interesting! Yes, my boy and my submissives crave sexual/sensual contact with me. But they also crave my attitude, they crave my overall strength. My boy has told me that he feels I have been one of the biggest influences in his life. That is why he stays, by choice, in my life. Sure we play orgasm control games as a way of mental stimulation, but I want him to have a healthy and fulfilled sexuality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Niran
I do use orgasm control, but not denial. I have e on a 10/1 ratio. For 10 of mine, he gets one. Not an unattainable goal, and that way he has to work.

If I used this rule, it wouldn’t change much. I’m way too multi-orgasmic. Besides, I hate having to keep score during sex! To each her/his own ;)

- LA

_____________________________

An iron hand in a velvet glove.

(in reply to Euryanx)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/11/2005 3:53:56 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 3240
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Montréal - Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold
If We limit sexual servitude to *penetration*, then I can see where the confusion may be regarding the use of chastity devices and orgasm control.

Actually, I see how my original post comes across that way. I don’t limit sexual servitude to penetration, but it is an important part of it for me.

quote:

I am firmly in the camp of "control the orgasm and control the boy". There are many things I want other than penetration or even oral. Perhaps I am beyond My sexally driven days. And, believe, Me I was there!

Oh, and there are many things that I want besides penetration, oral or overall sex. I just personally find that axing the control on orgasm control reinforces the stigma that men are lead by their dicks. I have found that most quality men I have found are lead by their minds.

quote:

So when many people refer to non-sexual servitude I always feel like they have a picture of a boy running around the house doing the chores, but never interacting in an intimate way with his Lady. Just someone to fetch and carry?
What about bathing Me, blow drying Myhair, doing My nails, giving Me a full body massage? This requires a great deal of intimacy for Me. What about just sitting at My feet and watching a movie with Me?

I agree. I guess all of these things I personally would want within the realm of a sexually satisfying relationship as well. This might come down to needs/desires/expectations then.

quote:

What about being out in public together? It takes a lot to maintain the current of D/s without being obvious about it. A chastity device is a good thing there also. A boy is going to act properly in a vanilla setting also, because he and I both know he is wearing someting under his clothes that nobody else can see.

On that level, totally hot, I agree. And I’m into some control, for sure.

quote:

These instances may not be directly sexual, but they certainly are sensual, and I love these services. It has been My experience if the boy is not in chastity, or doesn't have a firm sense of his place, he will end up viewing these services to Me as an inviation for more. Suddenly you feel the hard cock pressing into your back, or the stolen kiss on the neck.

Damn! That’s the way my boy usually wakes me up ;) I guess it really is a question of style. I don’t restrict advances and demonstrations of affection. In fact, I welcome them as a form of worship. Oh I play with it, for sure. Just because he is hard & horny doesn’t mean he can get whatever he wants. I might torture him for hours. But his desire is a turn on for me.

quote:

If there is no permission, it is not allowed. It is very easy to get carried away. It is much easier to remember if ol' tricky dick" is locked up. It has been My experience that a chastity device does make a boy more submissive.

Ah and there it is. I’m not looking for my boy or my subs to be more submissive. In fact, though I like a very obedient boy, I don’t like them too submissive. Then the challenge of keeping them in check is gone for me.

quote:

If one is with Me, when it is time to cum, I will say so, and it will be done in the way the best suits My mood of the moment.

On this, I agree with you 100%.

- LA

_____________________________

An iron hand in a velvet glove.

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/11/2005 4:02:53 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 3240
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Montréal - Canada
Status: offline
quote:

it has been My experience that chastity devices do keep the submissive feeling his submission (if you will pardon the double wording) by keeping them aware of their sexuality and their place. As soon as he gets aroused he is reminded of who controls his orgasms. He knows that if he behaves himself he can earn the reward of cuming and it tends to keep him focused IMHO.


Thank you all for your answers so far.

Alright, so this is the reoccurring theme/rationale. And I find myself perplexed here for the following reason. I'm not hard core D/s, as many people here know. I like a little D/s mixed in with bondage, discipline, sadomasochism and humiliation. But outside the play, in a relationship, I have no desire to control my boy to the same degree as what I hear expressed by many who consider themselves "D/s lifestylers". That said, WIITWD is more about sexuality for me then lifestyle.

I guess that is why I'm so very perplexed as to why I see so many lifestyle FD/s relationships focus on the "control the orgasm, control the man" principle. It reduces the interaction to a sexual one from my perspective.

This isn't a critique but rather something I still don't understand.

- LA

_____________________________

An iron hand in a velvet glove.

(in reply to GentleLady)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/11/2005 7:35:50 AM   
Niran


Posts: 70
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

If I used this rule, it wouldn’t change much. I’m way too multi-orgasmic. Besides, I hate having to keep score during sex! To each her/his own ;)

- LA


See, I am not multi-orgasmic like that at all,(the gods know, I wish I was) so its not a difficult for me at all. My "personal best" is 3 in one night. I usually get one, two means he worked really hard. e is very sexually driven, as well as ego driven and I use the two to play off eachother. I do see your point, that many in the lifestyle are caught up in the "sexual" aspect and that the "mental" aspect of it seems to have gotten lost. I agree, but I also respectfully disagree. Granted I am new here, and to the lifestyle, but I am not new to sex, and what makes a man tick. This is where the gender differences come in. Without going into a long biological (and very boring ) discussion, I see very much where "Control the orgasm, control the man" comes in. For some men, controlling orgasm is the quickest way to gain access to them mentally. My grandmother used to tell me that "The way to a man's heart is through his stomach." I have added "..and the way to his mind is through his penis"

Niran

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: To cum or not to cum, that is the question - 7/11/2005 3:06:16 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 3240
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Montréal - Canada
Status: offline 		I completely accept that you disagree. And for the record, I think many men are driven by their dicks, yes. Those are the men I avoid.

The men I allow to enter my life are men who are driven by more then just their dick. Yes they are men with strong libidos because that is important for me. But I need it to be about more then their dick. Therefore, by paying less attention to what they do with their dick, I make less about their dick.

Does that make sense?

- LA

_____________________________

An iron hand in a velvet glove.

(in reply to Niran)
Profile   Post #: 20
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