The perfect "tell"???

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The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 4:03:28 AM

BigBadVoodooDadd

Posts: 29
Joined: 6/23/2004
Status: offline

So, I've been tossing and turning with this in my head and I have actually been having a discussion with a few friends of mine about the issue.

The "issue" is how do you tell how submissive someone really is in the begining?

I mean there are the basic "tests" that everyone does but those are just pretty much there to see if there is something... not how much of it the person has. Everyone has done the "hairpull" test to see if the person will close their eyes and have their knees buckle when you grab their hair at that oh so sweet spot or if they will try to rip our arm out of the socket and try to beat us in to pulp with it. We have all done the nipple pinch test to see how much the person squirms and stomps their foot against the floor in protest thinking it would stop us. That is fine but those are not the tests that will actually tell us HOW MUCH is someome submissive.

I have been really thinking about all different things and other than pure gut instinct I have not found one thing that would help me determine how submissive someone is before I get to know them a bit better.

So, does anyone else have a different oppinion or am I asking you guys for something that does not exist?

I am looking forward to hearing from all of you!

BBVD

< Message edited by BigBadVoodooDadd -- 10/10/2004 4:04:10 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 5:38:14 AM

subbiejenn

Posts: 630
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline

i think that You have to get to know them better. Especially "online" because online it is to easy for people to be someone they are not. The couple test You did list are physical real life tests but someone could be a really submissive person and just not like their hair being pulled.

i can't really think of a true test, just have to have good instincts. Since all submissives are really different who is to say one is more submissive then the other anyway?

You may get to know 2 submissives really well and decide one is more submissive then the other but someone else may get to know them also and choose the other one as more submissive.

"stomps their foot against the floor in protest " is that what we are suppose to do when You pinch our nipples? my eyes close in search of that special place, it is always easier for me to endure pain for a Dom with my eyes closed... may squirm a little but never stomp my foot. Is because i do or don't stomp my foot make me more of a submissive?

i can think of one test to see if the sub will submit to just anyone. *giggles* think You know what i mean *grins*

i think E/everyone has a different idea of what makes a true submissive. You just have to look for Your definition of a true submissive within the person.

JMO and i just woke up and still need coffee!

~jenn~

_____________________________

~Subspace is my perfect paradise vacation from busy-mind... blessed be to the Dominant who can stamp my ticket there.~

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

(in reply to BigBadVoodooDadd)

Post #: 2

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 5:39:38 AM

Suleiman

Posts: 543
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline

My first thought is to apply one of the simpler tests for hypnotic susceptability. This not only indicates whether the person is capable of easily entering an altered state of consciousness (ie "subspace") but also determines their overall level of trust for you as the dom and their willingness on a mental and emotional level to do as you command.

Try the "chalkboard" technique. It is simple, easy, and does not provoke a deep hypnotic state (but can be used to initiate one). Tell the prospective sub to visualise a classroom with a chalkboard. Unless they come from mars and all their education was telepathically transmitted to them before they hatched, they should be able to clearly imagine this. Next, instruct them to picture themselves drawing a large chalk circle on the chalkboard. Ask them if they can clearly see the chalk circle, if they can smell the dust, feel the chalk in their hands. They should be able to summon up this imagery quite easily and will respond in the positive.

Next, suggest that they imagine a large X in the middle of the circle. Ask again if they're able to still clearly "see" the image. If they have so far been able to mantain a clear image of the pictures you've described, they are at least mildly susceptable to hypnosis. You can actually work a person into a light trance by guiding them through the whole alphabet in this way, and suggesting that with each letter they draw and then erase they are falling a bit further under your power. Simply suggesting that the light floaty feeling they're experiencing is the beginnings of subspace is usually enough to get most people deep into submissive mode, if they have one.

Keep in mind that contrary to popular fiction, you can not get a person to do something they are unwilling to do by means of hypnosis (which is why I'm suggesting this as a means of determining how "submissive" someone is). You can't even really push a hard limit using this technique, so there's no point in warning you to not misuse this technique - you can't, really. All you can do is screw up the trust your sub has given you, and if they decide you've screwed them while they're in a trance, I guarantee they will NEVER forget it.

~S

_____________________________

SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIUM ERUDITIONIS HABES

(in reply to BigBadVoodooDadd)

Post #: 3

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 5:41:35 AM

Suleiman

Posts: 543
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline

That's nothing... I'm still awake! I think I'm gonna hike out to starbucks in a few.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subbiejenn

JMO and i just woke up and still need coffee!

~jenn~

_____________________________

SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIUM ERUDITIONIS HABES

(in reply to subbiejenn)

Post #: 4

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 5:52:03 AM

sweetpleaser

Posts: 640
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Florida
Status: offline

If you pulled my hair or pinched my nipples at our first meeting I would tear your arm off and beat you with it because I barely know you. Once I get to know someone I would let them do just about anything to me. It doesn't make me more or less submissive, in my opinion. I wouldn't want to be treated like a new horse you are checking out. Maybe it is best to tell a new submissive what you want up front. In my case I would tell you if I am into what you are into or not. We could part ways if it isn't a good match. Or, you could just spend the time to get to know someone.

Good luck in your search.

ann

PS: edited for legibility due to lack of coffee

< Message edited by sweetpleaser -- 10/10/2004 5:54:48 AM >

_____________________________

~ann~

It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

(in reply to subbiejenn)

Post #: 5

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 6:00:56 AM

subbiejenn

Posts: 630
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline

MmmmmMmmmmmm there is a starbucks on the way to work too!

Good morning Suleiman and sweetpleaser!

Have a great day !

(i cant get to my mail sweet, i will write later - something i wanted to show you!! Now you have to be in suspense all day and wait! *giggles* Maybe i am a bit sadistic.)

_____________________________

~Subspace is my perfect paradise vacation from busy-mind... blessed be to the Dominant who can stamp my ticket there.~

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away"

(in reply to Suleiman)

Post #: 6

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 6:11:04 AM

Suleiman

Posts: 543
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetpleaser

If you pulled my hair or pinched my nipples at our first meeting I would tear your arm off and beat you with it because I barely know you. Once I get to know someone I would let them do just about anything to me. It doesn't make me more or less submissive, in my opinion. I wouldn't want to be treated like a new horse you are checking out. Maybe it is best to tell a new submissive what you want up front. In my case I would tell you if I am into what you are into or not. We could part ways if it isn't a good match. Or, you could just spend the time to get to know someone.

Good luck in your search.

ann

PS: edited for legibility due to lack of coffee

::Laughing:: When I first "came out", I was at a party at my friends house and found a small clump of pervs hanging out by the front door (there was no smoking in the main domicile). This was, literally, a few days after my first scene (my dom had forgotten about the temp collar he had put around my neck because I had been wearing a turtleneck that covered it up... I hadn't wanted to remove it, not knowing the etiquette of such things, so i was still wearing it at the party). My best friend's father is (or was, at any rate) a minor bigwig in the queer leather scene, and I wound up hanging out with him and a few of his cronies. He decided to test me, to see how submissive I really was. I told me to come over to him. I went over to where he was sitting. He told me to kneel. I knelt. He told me to, and I quote, "Get your hands behind you you cocksucker!". I damn near slugged him. Turns out, I only sub for the folks I agree to sub for, and only after I have agreed to do so. We still occasionally laugh about that little encounter.

_____________________________

SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIUM ERUDITIONIS HABES

(in reply to sweetpleaser)

Post #: 7

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 7:29:16 AM

msjingles

Posts: 27
Joined: 10/9/2004
From: Idaho
Status: offline

quote:

Everyone has done the "hairpull" test

Is that what that is?? lol I hadn't known there was a test....guess I should have studied *smirk*

I met a "Dom" one time... self proclaimed because IMO he was far from it, but anyway...

He made my skin crawl and I couldn't wait to be finished with our drink so I could leave. He insisted on walking me to my car and I was thinking the whole time why couldn't this clod get it that I wasn't interested. I mean really! It should be clearly obvious right? So, I get to my car and was trying to be polite in saying goodbye and went to shake his hand. He pulled me in and swooped on me like a vulture and grabbed my hair. I refrained from putting a knee in his groin but whipped my head around and gave the meanest look I could muster and asked him to let go of me. He did thankfully.

I got home to an email asking when he could see me again LOL
When I wrote back explaining that he wasn't the dom for me, he got rude and obnoxious and called me names.

In short, his little "sub" test turned into a "Dom" test and backfired on him because it left me with no doubts as to his position of asshole.

_____________________________

"if you think my eyes are beautiful, it's because they're looking at you."

(in reply to subbiejenn)

Post #: 8

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 7:58:29 AM

Nvernilla

Posts: 303
Joined: 10/1/2004
Status: offline

LOL what great story/attitude. But you ARE one of the best on the boards keep on keepin on jenn...Mike

(in reply to subbiejenn)

Post #: 9

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 8:22:06 AM

Suleiman

Posts: 543
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: msjingles

quote:

Everyone has done the "hairpull" test

Is that what that is?? lol I hadn't known there was a test....guess I should have studied *smirk*

Hrmmm... I remember, waaayy back when, my mistress used to say something about hairpulling being one of the classic signs of a dom whose only experience was online. Then again, she had an attitude about the online community.

_____________________________

SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIUM ERUDITIONIS HABES

(in reply to msjingles)

Post #: 10

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 8:29:09 AM

MaitresseEden

Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline

Well if you want a scientific test. This thesis established one specifically in regard to BDSM, and shows the cooreltaions between gender identitity and D/s classifications.
If you get the whole thesis the test and scoreing is includeing and you could administer it to anyone you wish. Abstract is available here.

http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/fullcit/1413717

There are also numerous other test out thier that messure personality traits in terms on dominance and submission passive and aggressive, however they do not focus sexually for their determination.

Ms. Eden

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to Nvernilla)

Post #: 11

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 10:51:46 AM

cariad

Posts: 120
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline

as a slave this one has gone through the hairpull only to whimper softly as it's something she loves, kneeling find different positions for them to kneel in.....hehe Master tested her right there on the spot when W/we met for the first time r/l when at the hotel, and it's not easy for this slave to kneel but she did because she loves Him and loves to kneel before Him. there's a topic on the boards "C" without physically being touched, well Master just has to say that "C" word and bam she's a quivering mess of slave. having them serve a drink is another way to test them, Master had this slave make His favorite then she knelt by Him while He sipped at it slowly, He commented that although it was a bit stronger than usual for Him, that she had done a good job. the nipple pinch gets this slave to arch her back, her shoulders roll forward and whimpers softly, just another perk her up that sends shivers down her spine.

just this slaves twenty-five cents......hehe inflation sucks the big one, big tie lately :D

quote:

Do not judge me for Ye may be judged incorrectly one day seeking help from me. Author Unkown

quote:

Walking in the light, Lurking in the shadows, By Day a Domme, A Tigress by Night, Y/you'll Never Know Where She Came From. Author, cariad[ST]

_____________________________

"The smile on Your face lets me know that You need me. There's a truth in your eyes sayin' You'll never leave me. The touch of Your hand says You'll catch me if ever i fall. You say it best when You say nothing at all."

(in reply to BigBadVoodooDadd)

Post #: 12

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 12:21:00 PM

karmaslave

Posts: 57
Joined: 10/4/2004
Status: offline

Forgive my *sheer ignorance* on the matter, but why not just ask them how submissive they feel they are and work from there?

"Will you kneel before me and serve me a glass of wine?"

"*BLEEP*"

"Uh, ok. Please don't hurt me."

I mean, honesty is the best policy when you're with someone new, isn't it?

(in reply to cariad)

Post #: 13

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 12:53:04 PM

MaitresseEden

Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

Forgive my *sheer ignorance* on the matter, but why not just ask them how submissive they feel they are and work from there?

Because.. statistically how people self identify is more often wrong, than right, hence it is not a valid method for catagorization. While it can be used for a preliminary sort, measurable standards are best and without bias.

Ms. Eden.

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to karmaslave)

Post #: 14

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 1:21:41 PM

happypervert

Posts: 862
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline

The stuff you describe sounds more like a pain slut test, and that might be something where you can be calibrated to measure with respect to "how much".

But if someone is really submissive with a service orientation, I don't see how you can measure it. I mean, telling them to fetch a cup of coffee and deciding they must be VERY submissive if they bring the whole pot doesn't seem valid. And one can be very submissive and not like having hair pulled.

So, I don't think there is any easy answer to this one.

(in reply to BigBadVoodooDadd)

Post #: 15

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 1:34:58 PM

BigBadVoodooDadd

Posts: 29
Joined: 6/23/2004
Status: offline

First let me thank you for all of you responding and thank you for your oppinions. I really appreciate your imput.

Ok... so I don't think that people understand what I am trying to ask. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh but I like to get down to the point.

People, this is a hypothetical question meaning that I am not asking about what would happen on the first date and I am not asking what would happen if you did not know the Dom/sub. I am not asking about personal relationships and I am not asking about the things that piss you off and I am not asking you what you would do if someone did those things to you.

What I AM asking is if people have their own way for that special "tell". Nothing more and nothing less.

I mean getting to know the person is a great way but what if you take the time to get to know them, you spend time with them and then in 6 months or whatever you find out that the original assesment of one's submission is not what you had expected. Most of the people that have been in the lifestyle have had it happen and I am just trying to find the answer because I have a bunch of my other lifestyle friends wonder about this as well.

Thank you very much.

I would also like to thank everyone once again for their imput and their contribution to the discussion.

Karma slave, most people don't know how submissive they are and if you ask them you will get a blank stare or a dishonest answer for a few reasons. The sub might be a bit too eager to pelase, might be too inexperienced and she might just plain want to appear as more than she really is. We all know some Dom's to it to appear more than what they are and the subs definitely do it too.

< Message edited by BigBadVoodooDadd -- 10/10/2004 1:42:22 PM >

(in reply to karmaslave)

Post #: 16

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 2:08:58 PM

karmaslave

Posts: 57
Joined: 10/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden

quote:

Forgive my *sheer ignorance* on the matter, but why not just ask them how submissive they feel they are and work from there?

Because.. statistically how people self identify is more often wrong, than right, hence it is not a valid method for catagorization. While it can be used for a preliminary sort, measurable standards are best and without bias.

Ms. Eden.

What kind of standardized experiments are without bias when they concern the potential flux of a human mind? Without having a control as a baseline how do you determine wheither someone is really submissive or if they just took an emotional beating earlier and are feeling subdued? I'm so confused. ;(

(in reply to MaitresseEden)

Post #: 17

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 3:26:15 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2245
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden

Because.. statistically how people self identify is more often wrong, than right, hence it is not a valid method for catagorization. While it can be used for a preliminary sort, measurable standards are best and without bias.

Ms. Eden.

This bothers me, honestly. In my opinion self identification is the ONLY "correct" form of identification, as you understand yourself best, and understand the way you define your terms. I understand best what I mean by "slave" or "submissive person" and while I can communicate what I mean to others, only I will understand it fully.

I might not fit with someone else's definition of the term, but in my self-identity and within my definition I do.

So...IMHO self-identification is the only "true" id, but one must be aware that others probably don't perceive your identity with the same definition as you do

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to MaitresseEden)

Post #: 18

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 3:26:43 PM

Redmage

Posts: 14
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline

I'm not sure what you mean when you ask "how submissive is a person?" That is, I'm not sure that it makes sense to try to quantitate it, or to say that one person is more or less submissive than another.

Talking about measuring submission implies that submissiveness is a quality that varies along a simple one-dimensional scale, like temperature or length. But in my experience submission varies in many dimensions, and even changes with time, circumstances, and the Dominant(s) involved. Submission has a *shape*, not a size.

So to my way of thinking a more useful test is to find out whether the form of a person's submission matches the form of my Dominance. Does she like to give what I like to take? Does she yield at the same places I like to push? To learn that I talk with her, ask her about what she likes, try this and that in the course of our play. I feel out her submission in the course of feeling her out, one might say.

(in reply to karmaslave)

Post #: 19

RE: The perfect "tell"??? - 10/10/2004 4:03:29 PM

proudsub

Posts: 3896
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline

quote:

So to my way of thinking a more useful test is to find out whether the form of a person's submission matches the form of my Dominance. Does she like to give what I like to take? Does she yield at the same places I like to push? To learn that I talk with her, ask her about what she likes, try this and that in the course of our play. I feel out her submission in the course of feeling her out, one might say.

Makes sense to me. Compatibility is much more important than how submissive someone is, IMHO.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

(in reply to Redmage)

Post #: 20

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