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Safe Words - 1/16/2004 2:39:09 PM

Voltare

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Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
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I have a confession to make. I've been in the lifestyle now for nearly six years, and I will say right now - I don't use safe words. I don't sit and negotiate a series of words or phrases for a submissive or slave to use to 'halt' the scene or the punishment. I absolutely believe that in the training and the manner of lifestyle I expect, safewords punch a big hole right through the wall of psychological expectations I have for a slave. I will offer a bit of explaination, though.

A) I don't do casual play. Many in the lifestyle enjoy demonstrations, switching partners, doing flogging and bondage for fun with people they know by reputation - not me. I don't actually enjoy bondage with strangers, I don't like flogging a woman I barely know, and I don't get into the play party scene. For me, an exchange of power is only of enjoyment with someone I am already intimate with and trust implicitly.

B) I don't do casual play. Did I repeat myself? To me, casual play carries a whole other set of expectations above and beyond the normal parameters of relationships. I will liken it to casual sex in many ways (at the risk of a lot of flames) in that it takes an intensely personal, private activity and shares it with what is, essentially, either a stranger or at best an acquaintence. Sure, people do fall in love at first sex, and they do fall in love at first flog - more power to them. I simply don't agree with it.

C) Communication: Safe words, inherently, are a form of communication. They aren't a 'stop' button, they're a red flag thrown to indicate that the sub/slave cannot take anymore. There's deeply rooted expectations in the lifestyle that when someone says 'no' then 'no' be respected, lest the person who violates this tenent be ostricized. This has led to the confusion that safewords can - in effect - replace healthy and normal communication. Over the weeks and months I spend getting to know a woman, her needs and desires eventually come out. I find out what she's done, what she liked, what she feels she needs, and what she's afraid of. My focus isn't on breaking down her limits - it's on finding mutual interests. For example, I enjoy knifeplay in my scenes, but I dont' require to actually draw blood, etc - though I certainly can. Many slaves are 'ok' with the knife being there, but most are not ok with being cut. This is where communication comes in - we talk about things, how it feels, what her thoughts are. If she seems reluctant, then I won't feel an urge to push past it. If she wants to try after we have trust established, then we take it slow. I don't need a woman bleeding like a stuck pig a week after I meet a woman, to find a measure of enjoyment from her. For me, the satisfaction comes from what we are sharing - not from the taboo of pushing her to do things she doesn't wish to do.

D) Focus. What it boils down to, is that we all enjoy and focus on certain activities and actions. When the focus is on finding a kinky partner for the night, the ballgame changes DRASTICALLY then when you're looking for a mate for many years. I expect far different things from a woman I date for one evening, then I do from a woman I've dated intimately for a year - with good reason!

If you're looking for casual play, I DO strongly urge you make use of safe words, and see that your activities follow the Risk Aware Consensual Kink concepts. Know what you are doing, with whom, and know what the risks entailed are. Remember, it's your body, and it's the only one you get for the rest of your life. If you take good care of it, it'll give you years of honest, faithful, and dependable use. If you don't change the oil, don't feed it the right fuel, and you smash into poles, trees, and don't keep an eye out for what other bodies might do to it, it won't last you very long.

Stephan

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RE: Safe Words - 1/16/2004 3:19:33 PM

Erusvi

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Stephan,

I agree with the spirit of your reasoning.

I agree, fully, with the statement:
"For me, the satisfaction comes from what we are sharing - not from the taboo of pushing her to do things she doesn't wish to do."

I agree that time spent delving into your slave's mind, seeking out her fantasies and learning her fears, is time well spent. That is a greater part of the adventure, to my mind.

I tend to push myself to try different things in play. Disorientation is a powerful tool. I love having her dancing on the edge.. not knowing what comes next. I may be led by something we've discussed earlier that day. I may be led by something we've discussed earlier that year. I may be led by the devil himself.

For example, I used to play at a local BDSM club here in LA. The stage there was two feet or so above the main floor. I had my wife at the time bound and blindfolded. Before the scene started, I designated a burly friend of mine to be the 'catcher'. At a point during the scene, I led her to the edge of the stage, where she could feel the drop off with her foot - and shoved her off - for that moment, in that instant, she thought she was going to die. Her adrenaline shot through the roof. Of course, my friend was there to catch her, and all was well. It worked perfectly. She was absolutely flying after that.

Now, we didn't sit and discuss this before I did it. To do so would have ruined the whole thing. I did, however, know her well enough to know that she would get off on it, once she knew she was not going to die. :)

I have a 'safe phrase' that I prescribe for my slave during play. This exists for one reason: Try as I might, I cannot know everything. I can't know that she has a pain in her shoulder that's making the bondage I'm using uncomfortable or even dangerous. I can't know that her leg has fallen asleep after the last position and that it's distracting her from the journey we are on.

I agree that the psychology and rhythm of a scene are the lifeblood of the art. Breaking that rhythm sucks. However, because we are imperfect beings, I have to put stock in safe words.

Do you have a different method for dealing with these kinds of things?

_____________________________

Schno
ErusVI
Los Angeles
Owner of dahanala
www.esenem.net
[img]http://www.esenem.net/Gallery/albums/2005_08_Savage/SM_1.thumb.jpg[/img]

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RE: Safe Words - 1/16/2004 4:08:53 PM

SherriA

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I don't use safewords either. They simply don't work for me, for a variety of reasons. As has been said, they're a means of communication. Personally, I simply prefer to communicate in the same way I would any other time. That's what works best for me.

I jokingly tell people that I don't use safewords, but I've been known to holler "Do that again and I"m going to reach down your throat, grab your balls from the inside and shove them out your asshole! That's not a directive, that's simply information. Do what you fucking want with it". I've never actually said that, but I've come pretty close. I'm simply going to say exactly what I'm thinking/feeling at the time, whatever that happens to be.

As to why safewords don't work for me, there are a few reasons. More often than not, if i'm really into whatever's going on, I'm not going to remember code words. My brain just doesn't catalogue like that. I'm not going to forget how to say what i'm thinking though, so that works better for me.

Another issue is that I don't always know WHEN I need things to stop. I"m a pretty serious masochist at times, and if my body chemistry kicks up all kinds of amazing adrenalin, endorphins, etc, I'm generally not aware that I'm in physical trouble. I have to count on my partners to recognize and police that most of the time.

Bottom line, for me, is that "regular" communication allows me to communicate *more* than code words do. Saying "yellow" will tell the person I'm playing with to slow down or back off, but it won't tell him/her why. I'd much rather say "this is getting really intense, and I'm really struggling with it", or "that last shot hit a bad spot, and it's going to be a problem if you go there again". Then the other person can make a judgement about whether to push forward or ease off, or change tactics altogether. They know what's going on.

Just ftr, I do a lot of "casual" play, with a variety of people. I actually think clear communication rather than code words is MORE important in these situations, because the person doesn't necessarily know how to interpret my reactions and needs the detailed information. A long time, trusted partner is going to have a better idea of where I'm at, simply from experience. A new playmate doesn't have the benefit of that history.

-- Sherri

< Message edited by SherriA -- 1/16/2004 7:09:18 PM >

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-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

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RE: Safe Words - 1/16/2004 5:05:48 PM

Voltare

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From: Santiago, Chile
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Erusvi,

Excellent question - I only wish I could have responded fast enough. In a nutshell, Sherri answered it to a T. If she's permitted to speak freely, she does. If she cannot speak (due to gagging) then I watch her body. I watch how she struggles, how she jerks, how her body moves. If I slap her too hard, she'll jerk in a way different then if I slap 'not hard enough.' And I take it slowly - I don't intend to whip a slave to a bloody pulp three days after we start doing scenes. For me, by knowing my slave as well as she knows herself, there's rarely a question of her status, health, or state of mind. Having said that, I -have- gone too far. I have struck a girl in a fashion that was more then she could handle (using a belt on her buttocks) - and her response was more then enough to tell me that I needed to halt the scene.

When a woman is gagged (unable to speak) the level of trust needs to be much higher as does the degree of responsibility rises. The need to check bindings aren't cutting off circulation, to ensure that restraints are still secure, and that the person is still calm, collected, is absolutely required. As far as things she may to, if - say - she's bound, and her hands go numb, she could simply wiggle the fingers vigerously. If she's being struck too hard and gagged, she might thrash her hips very hard, to try and avoid further blows. Unless we've played before and she's told me to expect this, AND she wants me to continue when she responds that way.

In the end, the only surefire way to keep a scene safe without 'safewords' per se, are to ensure that communication is strong, before, during, and after the scene. I do not wish to suggest that those who play casually are any 'worse' or 'better' then my own ideas, they are simply different in there tastes and kinks.

Stephan

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RE: Safe Words - 1/16/2004 9:34:33 PM

MizSuz

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To safe or not, that is the question.

I've found that it's a person to person kinda thing. My experience is that generally someone fairly new to the scene wants and/or needs some sort of safeword, if for no other reason than everyone in their limited experience has told them NEVER to play without one and that anyone who tells you they don't use one is someone to avoid; thereby instilling every possible online-goes-real time horror story ever written, thought of, or sadly experienced. Giving them safeword instructions creates a security cushion for them that can allow them to go more with the interaction.

There's a catch, though. Very often I've seen people who professed to want to 'submit' become very dependent on controlling the interaction through the use of their 'established safeword protocols,' thereby negating any real possibility of experiencing submission, as opposed to bottoming.

I'll give you an example. I've often been asked about my 'drill' for safewords (if I think it's appropriate or the person has requested them) and I've told many novice couples that my 'drill' goes thusly:

Red means stop (just like stop means stop). It will immediately end the interaction. You are expected to use either of these words if you need the scene to stop, for whatever reason.

Yellow means "If you (the top/dominant) continue doing what you are doing I am going to have to say RED (or STOP)." Yellow is used to keep me informed of where you are. You are expected to use yellow if it is appropriate for you. I enjoy finding your edges and dancing on them and to NOT tell me you are experiencing "yellow" is to with hold from me what I would get some of my enjoyment from. Understand that "yellow" still gives me the inalienable right to do as I see fit. That may be to pause and check on you, that may be to keep going, that may be to escalate the situation; but it's still completely at my discretion.

Green means "Yes Ma'am! May I have another?????"

If you get to Red, and it's not because your shoulder is coming out of it's socket or something similar; rather it is because you have reached the end of your endurance, then I expect to have heard at LEAST one yellow before you got to red. If I don't, then you were not carrying your end of the interaction and that means that the scene is over. No aftercare, no immediate discussions, you go home. It is the end you called for. Clear about that FIRST?

My experience is that usually if they are kept dancing at "yellow" then communication can come fairly naturally if you only do your part to keep the communication happening. Perhaps Stephan is saying the same thing.

What I have seen is a couple take this "philosophy of safewords" and turn it into "When I say yellow he always slows down or backs off and/or checks in on me." For me, this simply would not do (no offense to those it does work for). This is where I would begin to feel reduced to a life support system for a whip in a dynamic like this. It just wouldn't send me.

The first time I ever played with Sherri we'd known each other for a number of months (maybe 6?) and had both seen each other play and gotten to know each other socially. I was bored one night in the studio, swinging my single and said "who's next?" She said "I don't need safewords, I talk" and I said "that works for me, let's see where we go." The ONLY instrument I used on Sherri for many months of what I consider to be fairly hardcore S/m play was a single tail. I used the single for the warm up, the long hot ride, and the take down. (It's pertinent to note that, while it took me 2 years of showing Sherri I could give her exactly what she wanted the way she wanted it, in the end she DID ask politely to cum. hahaha - She will deny it, but I have 150 witnesses.) In the few years Sherri and I have been friends we've gone to all kinds of places Sherri didn't think she'd ever go. I've improved some of my sickest, most twisted and wicked stuff on sherri. Some days it's all clicking and everything just falls into place, some days it's just not workin' for one of us and we know when to say "eh, maybe another time...it's just not happenin' right now."

We've never used a safeword with each other.

Sherri HAS stomped her foot, balled her fist and drew back at me. This was a Sherri example of "yellow." I used the time spent laughing at her immediately after to let her channel her pain her way in that moment.

After she's been ridden hard and put away wet she usually wants a chair, a cigarette, something to drink and to be left alone. I've seen others that only wanted to curl in a blanket in the lap of the dominant and be softly rocked, and I've had some mad crazy monkey sex following a corporal session that was nothing short of exhausting for both parties.

For me this life is not about following the rules to the T. No rule is a good enough reason to abandon good judgement, right action and integrity in your relationships. The 'rule' about safewords is, in my estimation, a guideline for thoughtfulness. The point is thoughtfulness in ANY interaction; casual, committed or anything in between.

But don't get me started on mindless mantras.

Suz

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Suz

In honor of the impending ski season: If you're not livin' on the edge you're takin' up too much space!

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RE: Safe Words - 1/16/2004 10:18:54 PM

ShadowHwk

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This is one of the clearest discussions of this subject I have ever seen, and from very different view points, and all have merit.

I have, with some partners, used safewords over the years, and with others none were deemed necessary.

The key, for me, is finding a way to effectively communicate with my partner. More than once I have had the subject of my attention (read as my victim?) become non-verbal - they have gone to a place where they can no longer vocalize anything coherent - let alone articulate a safeword. How do you folks deal with this?

My way, which, I learned from my sub at the time, is a simple double hand squeeze, and returning double squeeze lets me know everything is alright, the lack of one lets me know something is wrong. This can be worked into the natural flow of things, especially if your switching out implements of pleasure/pain, it provides a natural place to check in.

I agree completely with Stephan's comments about paying attention and knowing his partner. I don't play casually - that just doesn't work for me - and I am certainly not criticising anyone who does. I take the time to know the subject of my attentions, what makes her tick, her likes and dislikes, to get inside her head. First scenes are relatively mild as we learn to trust each other. Later scenes are something else entirely. There is a natural progression that seems to take place as she and I grow together - if that makes any sense - when things feel ready to take up the intensity a level, that is when it happens, not before.

When I have used safewords, I have employed exactly the scheme set out by MizSuz. And when a STOP safeword is called, EVERYTHING stops. Right then, right there. There is no recapturing the moment, there is no winding down of things. It all stops. And this is spelled out clearly in the beginning before any play begins.

I have yet to have a sub use the safewords as a measure of control. Those that have used them, and it has happened - always felt like they had let me and themselves down. When this has happened - a lot of reassurance and discussion was needed to keep it from becoming a very detrimental experience. For me, providing positive reinforcement is paramount in restoring the subs sense of self worth at this somewhat critical moment. It is so important to communicate so that both parties know what went wrong..... and in my opinion, when a safeword is used, it is because something in the communication process has broken down, something HAS gone wrong.

And as always, your mileage may vary, and what works for me certainly will not work for everyone else.

Terry
AKA ShadowHwk

< Message edited by ShadowHwk -- 1/16/2004 10:20:55 PM >

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RE: Safe Words - 1/16/2004 10:38:07 PM

MizSuz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadowHwk

I have yet to have a sub use the safewords as a measure of control. Those that have used them, and it has happened - always felt like they had let me and themselves down. When this has happened - a lot of reassurance and discussion was needed to keep it from becoming a very detrimental experience. For me, providing positive reinforcement is paramount in restoring the subs sense of self worth at this somewhat critical moment. It is so important to communicate so that both parties know what went wrong..... and in my opinion, when a safeword is used, it is because something in the communication process has broken down, something HAS gone wrong.

And as always, your mileage may vary, and what works for me certainly will not work for everyone else.

Terry
AKA ShadowHwk

I'd call that "thoughtfulness" (but much more nicely said).

Suz

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RE: Safe Words - 1/16/2004 10:50:10 PM

MizSuz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadowHwk

More than once I have had the subject of my attention (read as my victim?) become non-verbal - they have gone to a place where they can no longer vocalize anything coherent - let alone articulate a safeword. How do you folks deal with this?

Terry
AKA ShadowHwk

Terry:

As you say, your mileage may vary. However, I'm afraid I tend to be a bit...ummm...unforgiving about the 'no longer vocalizing coherently' stuff. That's not to say that I never want to take someone to a place they are floating, or disassociated but I figure if I do, and their vitals are all good then if anything were wrong they wouldn't be 'floating' and let that sleeping dog lay.

I do, however, usually prefer to be 'engaged' with someone and therefore don't make the 'disassociation float' a goal very often. If they go too far away I've found that an unexpected sensation tends to bring them back. How much you draw them back depends on what you do, how you do it and how much you want to pull them back (and who you're doing what to).

Example: Someone who was "floating' to the point of his head bobbing was very simple to bring back to engagement with a very sudden and unexpected (and somewhat ruthless) nipple twisting. It's enough to keep it going - catecholamines (like adrenaline) are still endorphins and still do things to the body. It's quite possible to contrast the dopamines (which make you feel "floaty") in counterpoint to the catecholamines (adrenaline like rushes - fear for example) to create a very exceptional experience.

I get bored if they float away (unless my intent was to put them to bed).

Suz

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RE: Safe Words - 1/17/2004 1:26:09 AM

Voltare

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Excellent thoughts, thank you Suz, Shadowhwk, and others, for your insight.

As to how to deal with 'floating' and 'dissassociating'.... Perhaps this will lead us into tomorrows topic? Subspace anyone?

Stephan

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RE: Safe Words - 1/17/2004 8:39:48 PM

strictandcruel

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Very well put people!

I have gotten into some hellish arguments over safewords on chat sites.

One point I'll add is that I think a novice may put too much trust in a safeword, feeling "safe" because the top agrees to use safewords. The key factor is TRUST! A safe word does not make you safe when in the hands of someone you don't really know. Once bound how do you know he will hear or act on your safe word? How do you know he will even care?

The promise of a safeword should NEVER replace good old fashion trust built up from getting to know each other when you play in private, at play parties with a dungeon master keeping a eye on things safewords are essential between people who are not trusted play partners.

My last slave and I never used safewords, we were very much "in-tune" with each other, I'm rather empathic with skill at reading body language, when she flies I fly also, when she starts to feel too much in the bad way I instantly know it. This level of being in tune with each other is a big part of the thrill, I get off on the responsibility.

strictandcruel

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RE: Safe Words - 1/18/2004 1:10:51 AM

SherriA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: strictandcruel

One point I'll add is that I think a novice may put too much trust in a safeword, feeling "safe" because the top agrees to use safewords.

I think the reliance on safewords is even riskier for novice tops, personally. Just because safewords have been negotiated doesn't mean that they can be depended on, nor should it diminish the attention paid to the bottom. Unfortunately, I've seen countless novice tops put too much faith in the bottom calling a safeword to let them know how the scene is going. I really think novice tops should be encouraged to learn to read their bottoms rather than depending on coded communication, yet there seems to be so much emphasis on safewords that this often gets forgotten.

-- Sherri

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-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

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