Risk vs. reward

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Risk vs. reward - 5/9/2005 10:32:40 PM

subversiveone

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Dearest forum, this is my first post here so I must preface all that I am about to say:
I have no deep religious, ethical, or moral aversion to poly. I have simply not been able to make it work for me in the past.
It seems as though, in order to make it really work, one must be in top ‘form’ on many levels. Being free from personal insecurity, persecution, social programming etc etc...
When you’ve asked yourself, or your partners, why you are compelled towards poly is it just a matter of ‘because i/we want to’? Do the why’s factor into your decisions? Should your partners desire be reason enough in your opinion or did you need a deeper understanding? And is it based solely on your level of power and control in the relationship? I think it's a blend of all partners reasons, desires, needs, wants, whims, fantasies, fears, and importantly:experiences.
If you were beginning a relationship with a single partner and they told you that they desired poly in general, and the two of you had not even developed your bond would you be more or less open to it at the onset? Isn’t that a decision that can only be made once you’ve built trust and love? How can one say that it is or is not for them with nothing more than preconceived notions? If it is only a ‘hypothetical’ possibility at some unknown point in the future, does it really matter? Is it better to remain open minded and risk losing them if it doesn’t work or to admit your fears and never risk anything at all before it begins? Honesty being the best policy, I'm trying to put into perspective my fears vs. His needs in a D/s relationship. One part of me doesn't want to 'cave' to something that could cause me to lose a great friend. The other part wants to remain true to myself and openly communicate my doubts and fears. I feel He would like me to hop on one side of the fence or get 'off' and stay off. It saddens me because the possibilities are so endless. How can i be open to it now?
I'm telling Him that ive been very upfront with my negative opinions and He feels He's been as clear with his positive. He lives in a Poly household where other members partake and give Him the option, so He is Poly without actually having a partner/s. He can't tell me if or when He would like to include them, introduce me to someone new, or if upon bestowing a collar or other serious level of committment He would give me a choice. This is the first subject that has seemed a hard limit for Him. Up until recently i considered it a hard limit in the opposite direction... And while id love to say He could make it work, i don't know Him that well. Everything else has been a great match or complement to another.
I feel like im being asked to either accept Him as Poly now even though IMO He's not or walk away.
Thank Y/you for any and all non-flammable opinions…

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/10/2005 4:56:07 AM

subcharmedlilone

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You have valid questions all which i think all submissive ask when entering poly i know i as the same questions, but upon my reading and learning and talking to Master i have learned the answers to the questions they are valid fears and concerns that only u hold the answers to are u will to take the risk, and if i does work reep the rewards, u will have to decied that and only u can. if u wish someone to talk to and through out my prospective u can im at yahoo subcharmedlilone, one that is always willing to help and listen.

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/10/2005 5:15:49 AM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

When you’ve asked yourself, or your partners, why you are compelled towards poly is it just a matter of ‘because i/we want to’? Do the why’s factor into your decisions? Should your partners desire be reason enough in your opinion or did you need a deeper understanding?

Let me start out with... WOW... very deep questions here.

I would have to say that the "why's" are a major factor. IMNSHO, I need to know and understand that the desire for poly isn't because what we, as a couple, have isn't enough. I need to understand that the desire to include others in our relationship is based on the desire to share, add to, or build on what we have already established. If we decided tomorrow to return to the world of monogamy, we would still be a wonderful and fulfilled couple, poly does NOT take away from that, nor does it complete us as a couple, it simply adds to us.

quote:

If you were beginning a relationship with a single partner and they told you that they desired poly in general, and the two of you had not even developed your bond would you be more or less open to it at the onset? Isn’t that a decision that can only be made once you’ve built trust and love?

Again, IMNSHO, to start a relationship based on the ideal that it will eventually become a poly one is doomed to failure. Before we even considered going poly we had been together for quite some time, built a very strong bond, established great communication skills and a very deep trust of each other. We talked about what we felt we wanted or needed in a third (or fourth) person and what we would tolerate and what the "deal breakers" would be.

quote:

If it is only a ‘hypothetical’ possibility at some unknown point in the future, does it really matter? Is it better to remain open minded and risk losing them if it doesn’t work or to admit your fears and never risk anything at all before it begins?

My question here would be, even if it was only a "hypothetical possibility", how would you develope the all important initial relationship if that was always in the back of your mind? I would think there would be that underlying pressure to "set things in order" so to speak, to be ready for that "hypothetical" third person to join the relationship.

quote:

One part of me doesn't want to 'cave' to something that could cause me to lose a great friend. The other part wants to remain true to myself and openly communicate my doubts and fears. I feel He would like me to hop on one side of the fence or get 'off' and stay off. It saddens me because the possibilities are so endless. How can i be open to it now?

Always remain true to yourself, be upfront about it and state what is on your mind, tell him your thoughts on it, it may be the last chance you get to do so in an environment that is still negotiable. Personally, I can NOT believe that not being willing to commit to a future poly relationship before even having a current monogamous one is a deal breaker. That just doesn't sound right to me. I can understand that at some point he may tell you that the possibility exists that someday, in the future, he may want a second submissive/slave, but wants to establish and nurture a one on one relationship first before considering it and would want you to understand that, although at this point it is moot, it would be something to discuss at a later time. Again, in my opinion, that is a common train of thought.

quote:

He lives in a Poly household where other members partake and give Him the option, so He is Poly without actually having a partner/s. He can't tell me if or when He would like to include them, introduce me to someone new, or if upon bestowing a collar or other serious level of commitment He would give me a choice.

Ok, admittedly, I don't have a clue what this means..."so He is Poly without actually having a partner/s." But I think what you are saying is that he is living with a poly group that as offered to bring him in as a part of the group. If that is the case, then what you are saying is that he has seen the way poly works and wishes to be a part of his own poly group, or wishes you to join him in their poly group?

These are decisions that must be made up front and he needs to be totally honest about it to you. And, again, IMNSHO, it sounds like he is planning on taking that "choice" away from you if you accept his collar but just doesn't (A) want to tell you, or (B) doesn't have the balls to tell you right up front. This decision is yours, plain and simple, whether you wear his collar or not. No one should feel like they are being forced to accept poly as a lifestyle. I won't tell you that you should stay, nor would I suggest that you walk away, what I will tell you is that you really need to get to know him a LOT better before making that committment.

There are a lot of people that desire a poly relationship, a lot of people that honestly believe it is or would be perfect for them. Unfortunately most that have never lived it do not understand the amount of work it involves. The massive amounts of open and honest communication it requires, the patience, the fortitude, and the control of ones own emotions involved with maintaining it. In many respects it is similar to having a large family living in the same house, but the differences between that dynamic and a poly dynamic are what makes or breaks it. It is no longer about just having to share the bathroom with a sibling, it's about having to share the emotional and physical bond with a third person, it's about knowing that or watching that "other" person receive pleasure from the one that was once exclusively yours and enjoying it with no jealousy or hostility. It's about sharing something that society has taught us should never be shared and doing it with an open and loving heart. It isn't something to look at through rose colored glasses, it's a lifestyle, not a hobby. Only serious need apply.... lol

I hope I answered some of your questions, and I really look forward to others opinions on it as well.

Jewel

edited for spelling error.

< Message edited by ShiftedJewel -- 5/10/2005 8:37:06 AM >

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/10/2005 5:48:40 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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I just want to say Shifted gave a really awesome answer on this…and now I’m going to give a very different one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subversiveone
Dearest forum, this is my first post here so I must preface all that I am about to say:
I have no deep religious, ethical, or moral aversion to poly. I have simply not been able to make it work for me in the past.

Most people totally ruin their first go at poly relationships. But then, most people totally ruin their first go at monogamous relationsips.

quote:

It seems as though, in order to make it really work, one must be in top ‘form’ on many levels. Being free from personal insecurity, persecution, social programming etc etc...

Couldn’t be farther from the truth. I’d say you need to be top form at being AWARE of your insecurities, programming and other issues. But free of them? Hardly. I’ve got tons of insecurities, tons of stigma and baggage and issues. As do most of my partners to some greater or lesser extent in certain areas.

quote:

When you’ve asked yourself, or your partners, why you are compelled towards poly is it just a matter of ‘because i/we want to’?

For me and most of my partners it is, we were simply born this way. For others, they discuss it more in depth, and there are other reasons, adult families of choice can be blessings.

quote:

Do the why’s factor into your decisions?

They factor in, what’s more important to me is how well they can and do function in the dynamic.

quote:

Should your partners desire be reason enough in your opinion or did you need a deeper understanding?

Desire is enough to begin to get to know them and see if something can happen. A deeper understanding is necessary to become a serious relationship.

quote:

And is it based solely on your level of power and control in the relationship?

This has little to do with poly and the doms who try to use their dominance to “make it work” always find themselves failing miserably. Remember, most poly people are vanilla.

quote:

If you were beginning a relationship with a single partner and they told you that they desired poly in general, and the two of you had not even developed your bond would you be more or less open to it at the onset?

Definitely more. On the other hand if I met someone and they said they were monogamous, I wouldn’t pursue them. I AM poly, and trying to get involved with a monogamous person wouldn’t be fair to either of us.

quote:

Isn’t that a decision that can only be made once you’ve built trust and love?

Let me ask you this- if you met someone who said they were vanilla, would you tell them they can only make the decision once they’ve built trust and love with you? YES absolutely you need a strong foundation between you before you even THINK of bringing a new person into the mix, but you don’t need to trust and love before you know whether a type of situation simply won’t work. And better to let them seek their fulfillment than stifle them with “love.”

quote:

How can one say that it is or is not for them with nothing more than preconceived notions?

Well some people simply know it is who they are, and we must let them make that choice for themselves. Perhaps they are wrong, perhaps they will change their minds, but that is still their decision to make. What is wrong for you now may be right for you later.

quote:

If it is only a ‘hypothetical’ possibility at some unknown point in the future, does it really matter?

Absolutely. That’s something like asking if having children is just a hypothetical, should a couple discuss it before marriage. You need to know where you all stand on the big issues and the little issues.

quote:

Is it better to remain open minded and risk losing them if it doesn’t work or to admit your fears and never risk anything at all before it begins?

It’s GOOD to remain open minded, but if someone feels strongly enough about it, it’s better to let them go. They have to make the choice for themselves- is the risk worth it? And the other person has to go into it knowing that this is a Big Experiment in the persons life and what risk that entails as well.

And it’s ok to say no thanks.

quote:

The other part wants to remain true to myself and openly communicate my doubts and fears.

Goodness no matter WHAT choice you make, you HAVE to do this anyway.

quote:

He can't tell me if or when He would like to include them, introduce me to someone new, or if upon bestowing a collar or other serious level of committment

Poly and all else aside, THIS would be enough to stop things altogether. While you can’t expect him to pull a date out of a hat, he SHOULD know the process of how people are brought into things, what steps will be meaningful, and how he wants the relationship to progress. Whether it goes to plan or not, the fact that he simply “can’t tell you” these things is a big alarm for me.

quote:

. And while id love to say He could make it work, i don't know Him that well. Everything else has been a great match or complement to another.

So take time to get to know him a little longer. There’s no rush here. Keep dating, him and other people, and find what works long term.

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/10/2005 7:01:20 AM

stormsfate

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I don't have much to add except to agree with much of what Shifted Jewel and EmeraldSlave2 wrote.

I definately do not agree that

quote:

Being free from personal insecurity, persecution, social programming etc etc...

I'm not sure its possible for most of us to be free of these things entirely. The important thing is to understand them, acknowledge that they are there and put them in a realistic perspective. For example...I know when I am overtired that I will be much more sensative to insecurity than at any other time.

At this point, I feel that in order for poly to work...everyone involved has to *want* it to work. If you want it for someone else and are just going along with it to make them happy, I just don't see how it can hold together long term.

best regards,
fate

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/10/2005 8:17:50 AM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

Remember, most poly people are vanilla.

I honestly don't know that to be true, I know one poly 'nilla family and several D/s or M/s poly groups, and no, I don't see it as based on one persons power or control in the relationship, as EmeraldSlave said, anyone that thinks they can use their dominance to "make it work" is doomed to fail.

I also have to state that IMNSHO, a strong foundation is built on complete trust, open communication, honesty and respect, even in the 'nilla world. And before I could ever bring another person into my home, life and relationship in an intimate setting, all of those foundation stones better be in place. I want to know and fully understand that this person is not there to usurp my place in the household. For that to happen, I personally have to be fully aware of any and all of my own personal insecurities and concerns as well as my partners. I have to know that everyone involved will be able and willing to talk about any difficulties that may arise and deal with them in an open and honest way... In order to acheive any of that, I must be able to completely trust them.

As far as love is concerned.. I absolutely believe that it is a huge part of my life and my ability to deal with what ever obstacles come along... As the song says, "Love can walk to fire without blinking". Because Scooter and I share such an incredible bond, because we live the four cornerstones daily in our lives, because we are so desperately in LOVE, we are able to easily share our lives with another person.

I know that a lot of people live poly in a lot of different ways, more power to you and I wish nothing but the best to all of you. I have learned so much from reading these posts and would like to believe I have contributed in return. I speak only for us, we live a poly life 24/7, all living under the same roof, and at times all sleeping in the same bed, so for us, Scooter and I, there has to be love, there has to be that bond.

quote:

Absolutely. That’s something like asking if having children is just a hypothetical, should a couple discuss it before marriage. You need to know where you all stand on the big issues and the little issues.

An absolutely perfect analogy!

quote:

At this point, I feel that in order for poly to work...everyone involved has to *want* it to work. If you want it for someone else and are just going along with it to make them happy, I just don't see how it can hold together long term.

I couldn't agree more stormsfate, all that will do is build up resentment over time, it has to be a team effort.

Jewel

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/10/2005 7:11:08 PM

Leonidas

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It's pretty simple, really. He's telling you upfront what most men will leave you to find out later. He's not going to be sexually/intimately exlusive with you. Him telling you that he's "poly" is just him saying that he'd rather be open about it than not. If you're looking for someone who will (say anyway) that they will be monogamous with you, he ain't it. Keep looking. Thinking that you're going to change his mind is a dead-end, even if you appear to have done so. Your choices at this point are threefold: Find someone else, expand your thinking to include the possibilty of intimate relations that include more than two, or continue on as if everything is cool when it isn't, and get yourself hurt somewhere down the line. The first two choices are (relatively) painless. The third one will hurt you, and waste your time.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 5/10/2005 7:13:04 PM >

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/10/2005 8:21:59 PM

ScooterTrash

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Tough to top some of the answers so far..but I'll try to add a little spice to the pie anyway.

quote:

It seems as though, in order to make it really work, one must be in top ‘form’ on many levels. Being free from personal insecurity, persecution, social programming etc etc...
Although many do feel it is impossible to be free of "Insecurity, persecution, social programming, etc." as you said...I do feel it goes a bit beyond just being aware, as EmeraldSlave elated to. Maybe I'll compromise here, let's say totally under control of those insecurities and such. At any rate, yes, you cannot let the stigma that you were likely brought up believing as wrong or odd, enter into the equation...you do have to decide what's right for yourself and then stick to your new beliefs.
quote:

When you’ve asked yourself, or your partners, why you are compelled towards poly is it just a matter of ‘because i/we want to’? Do the why’s factor into your decisions?

ShiftedJewel answered that extremely well for both of us.
quote:

Should your partners desire be reason enough in your opinion or did you need a deeper understanding?

Nope..not at all. Basing your decision solely on the desire of another, will not work. We're not talking ordering dinner here, this has (IMHO) to be a joint decision by the original "two", no matter what dynamic makes up that two.
quote:

If you were beginning a relationship with a single partner and they told you that they desired poly in general, and the two of you had not even developed your bond would you be more or less open to it at the onset?
Yes & no...I will never see this situation, but I would think before you would consider this as a real consideration, the partner you speak of would have had to have been IN a previous poly relationship, not just included occasionally..that's not poly in my book, that's playing.

quote:

Isn’t that a decision that can only be made once you’ve built trust and love?
OK..I'll butt heads a bit with Emerald on this one, probably because, well because we're different..lol. In my estimation, yes, this is important, but I feel this is important because of the stability it brings to the relationship. Being honest, a poly relationship may undergo several "members" before you get it right. I feel you have to have that "base camp" stability as a rock to land back on, if things go wrong. You do not want to sacrifice the main relationship in an effort to expand. To me, that's the four cornerstones and love. Just my thoughts.
quote:

I feel He would like me to hop on one side of the fence or get 'off' and stay off. It saddens me because the possibilities are so endless. How can i be open to it now?
I fear I have no better advice than what has already been given, you simply cannot make that decision at this point. I feel you have a right to sit on that proverbial fence. Of course if he is not willing to sit beside you and make that decision, jointly at a later date...well...perhaps that says it all.
quote:

And while id love to say He could make it work, i don't know Him that well.
EmeraldSlave said the answer to this well (although I disagree totally with her nilla perception..lol) with
quote:

This has little to do with poly and the doms who try to use their dominance to “make it work” always find themselves failing miserably.
In other words, HE can't make it work, it really is a group effort.

.

In a nutshell, you may be forced to make a decision, based on simple non-compatability. If he isn't willing to include you in this decision (even if at a later date) and he is strongly for it, even though he has no practical experience, something is awry already.

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/11/2005 12:39:10 PM

subversiveone

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What wonderful insight from all of Y/you.
the good news is that we talked the evening that i posted this and cleared up a lot of my misconceptions about His desires.. He does want it to be in the realm of possibilities in the far future, He knows how i feel about it, He isn't going to push it on me, we have a lot of loving to do first and it's not a deal breaker on either side. The dialogue has begun.
Thank Y/you!

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/12/2005 6:44:02 PM

ShiftedJewel

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I just wanted to say congrats!! Sometimes just stating a problem out loud is all it takes to set the solution into motion, I'm really glad things are working out for you.

Jewel

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/12/2005 6:51:28 PM

ScooterTrash

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Ditto what SJ said...is great you are making progress. Something else to consider, may be to direct him toward the boards as well. He may gain insight from reading about others situations and seeing the complexity of what he feels is a future possibility. Poly is far from simple and even when you have experience at it, it doesn't mean you don't look to the multitude for suggestions.

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/13/2005 9:02:46 AM

subversiveone

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absolutely... i agree wholeheartedly... He is active on bondage.com but im not because im not a paying member.
i asked permission to post for multiple reasons, i hope He will read my replies and begin speaking here too as well as know that im sincere in accepting this aspect of His desire.
He said something very curious to me the other night... " I dont choose whom I love. not whom I lust after. whom I end up loving - really loving. whom I want to love as more than just a friend. whom I desire to be a part of my life, and my relationships. " Now i could easily just nod my head but the more i read that it strikes me that it sounds a little passive aggressive or something similiar for lack of a better term. i am very choosy personally, no one just waltzes into my life and sweeps me off my feet or befriends me without me taking a very active stance. im an open person, mind you, but i work my relationships hardcore. Perhaps He's saying that He's not as emotionally guarded, that when someone cares for Him he automatically cares back, that if He is sought He responds. More to talk with Him about!! He is definitely a giver. But id hate to see that evolve into not being able to say 'no' even if He's to be my owner.
Using the analogy above of "Do you want children" vs. "Do you want poly" i think the only major difference is that you have far more control over the decision to intro others than to have children barring unplanned pregnancy. And while one may have that desire, no one can say if it will be right for the relationship anymore so than poly. If one is just hellbent on having kids though and the other just absolutely cannot or will not then there's a problem. If he were hellbent on Poly than id have to walk away because it would be a total disregard for my wants/desires. It all depends on your perspective. Both of those questions are looming large overhead for me right now and i look forward to working out our answers. i would rather be involved with someone who is this open and giving upfront than not ;)
xoxo

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RE: Risk vs. reward - 5/13/2005 9:19:44 AM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

i am very choosy personally, no one just waltzes into my life and sweeps me off my feet or befriends me without me taking a very active stance.

You know? I used to think that way about myself too. Up until about three years ago... I divorced about 15 years ago, decided that was it for me. I've been proposed to a few times, luckily I had time to get past that emotional moment and decide against it. Then I met Scooter... And he did just that, he waltzed into my life and swept me off my feet and has been doing that since. I didn't stand a chance, but then again, neither did he. It was a slow build up, no fireworks and crap like that, just slow and sneaky, all of a sudden, on the same day even, we realized that we were hopelessly in love.

Back then, if anyone would have told us that today we would be one of those sickenly sweet and truly happy polyamorous families we would have laughed at them. Not only had we never even considered it, we were nearly the complete opposite, we opposed it on a regular basis. My point is... I don't believe that anyone can lay out the path their lives will take with any real certainty.. ok, with the exception of those that are truly closed minded, and even they can change... Just don't sweat the small stuff, keep an open mind and heart, the rest will fall into place.

Jewel

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