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Poly Models - 12/27/2005 11:17:53 AM

luvdragonx

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I did a search, and only found a few posts that mentioned different poly models, but no single thread completely dedicated to the idea.

Some background. Recently I was debating the definition of poly and how it applies to different situations. I learned that my idea of poly was limited, since that there are models that are defined as polyamory that I defined as something else. With that realization, I figure we've been doing the poly thing a lot longer than I orignally thought.

During this debate, the point in question was my belief that, regardless of the model, the arrangement should benefit everyone involved, or not at all. As usual, I have a hypothetical :)

John and Lily are a couple who have set the expectation that their relationship is primary. They meet Mary and all agree to a relationship together. John, Mary and Lily enter a triad, but then Lily decides she doesn't want to be involved with Mary anymore, it ceases to be a triad, right? Ok, then you have a Vee I guess. I feel that as long as John, Mary and Lily are satisfied with that arrangement, it's all good. But Lily is STILL unhappy with the arrangement and wants Mary gone. John and Mary don't want that. What is everyone to do?

The thing I argued against was the idea that Lily's only- (reads best and ethical)- option was to find a way to live with it. It is an option, of course, but not the only one, and not necessarily the best one. I believe that Lily should be honest and figure out what her real issue is. Once she has, I believe that John and Mary should respect her decision, whatever it may be. I also believe that Lily should be aware of and ready to accept the outcome of her decision, and it may not be a nice one.

I believe that John should also examine his motivation and issues and understand that his decisions will also carry consequences, and be prepared for those.

Same with Mary.

My assertion still stands: either everyone is satisfied with the arrangement, or it's not going to work. At that point the choices to make become a lot harder. For those of you who are in, or have been in poly relationships of any configuration, is this a realistic assertion? Can anyone be unhappy with the relationship and still have the group be healthy?

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 12/27/2005 11:22:02 AM >

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RE: Poly Models - 12/27/2005 11:26:08 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
My assertion still stands: either everyone is satisfied with the arrangement, or it's not going to work. At that point the choices to make become a lot harder. For those of you who are in, or have been in poly relationships of any configuration, is this a realistic assertion? Can anyone be unhappy with the relationship and still have the group be healthy?

First you use the word "satisfied" and then you use the word "happy."

Different things.

It depends on what your goal is. Different contexts require different things. If all I am to a partner is a friend he dates and plays with regularly, I don't have to even LIKE his other partners. If someone is my primary partner and he wants to bring another person in the house to live with me...that requires a different set of connections and expectations.

So it depends on what values everyone puts on everything, and what exact situation is going on.

But IME, no, everyone does not need to love and embrace everyone else in order for a poly situation to work. In CERTAIN poly situations however, love and embrace is necessary.

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RE: Poly Models - 12/27/2005 11:57:33 AM

luvdragonx

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OK, swap 'dissatisfied' for 'unhappy'.

Loving and embracing everyone else isn't what I meant though, since different poly models and relationships require different things, just like different people require different things.

I'm not asking if everyone has to love or even like everyone else. I'm asking if the arrangement overall can be unsatisfactory to one partner yet still be successful and healthy.

I didn't like my husbands secondary all that much, but at the time it didn't matter because I wasn't required to be around her. My eventual issues weren't primarily with her, they were with him and how our relationship was being affected. Subsequent interaction with her however did make her a problem for me. Not THE problem, mind you, but A problem.

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RE: Poly Models - 12/27/2005 1:21:09 PM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
Can anyone be unhappy with the relationship and still have the group be healthy?

Depends on how "unhappy." Is it "I wish he would shave before kissing me" unhappy or "if I see that bitch again, I'll kill them both" unhappy?

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RE: Poly Models - 12/27/2005 1:25:58 PM

anopheles

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
Can anyone be unhappy with the relationship and still have the group be healthy?

Depends on how "unhappy." Is it "I wish he would shave before kissing me" unhappy or "if I see that bitch again, I'll kill them both" unhappy?

Not nearly as extreme, but it is much closer to the latter, than the former. These problems don't stem from any visceral issues, rather much deeper to the core of what the three parties expectations for the relationship to be. Without going into much detail, the newest member of the relationship was presented with the situation of folding COMPLETELY into their family, and having equal status with the existing wife. Well, that fell apart, but the relationship with the husband remained, and drama ensued.

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RE: Poly Models - 12/27/2005 1:36:12 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Is this like the same situation you all brought up a few weeks ago? The whole "he/she/she" continued use of pronouns makes the situation very confusing.

Everyone needs to talk with everyone. Give it time to work itself out. Ultimately, if not everyone is fulfilled with the situation, it needs to end.

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RE: Poly Models - 12/27/2005 3:56:14 PM

luvdragonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
Can anyone be unhappy with the relationship and still have the group be healthy?

Depends on how "unhappy." Is it "I wish he would shave before kissing me" unhappy or "if I see that bitch again, I'll kill them both" unhappy?

I'm thinking somewhere between Reasonably Irked and Pissed the Hell off.

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RE: Poly Models - 12/27/2005 4:02:47 PM

luvdragonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Is this like the same situation you all brought up a few weeks ago? The whole "he/she/she" continued use of pronouns makes the situation very confusing.

Everyone needs to talk with everyone. Give it time to work itself out. Ultimately, if not everyone is fulfilled with the situation, it needs to end.

I think that's the key - giving it time, and sometimes it's impossible for all to agree on how much time is enough/too much. I guess it also depends on how honest everyone is being. If all partners are determined to get their way, no matter what, then no amount of time is going to make a difference.

To JohnWarren's point, I'm not talking about minor irritation, like "He bought her a pink scarf and got me a blue one. He knows pink is my favorite color!" That, IMO, is small stuff. I'm thinking more like,
"When I suggested we invest our savings, you said no. Five minutes later she suggested it and you agreed wholeheartedly. Why does her opnion seem to carry more weight than mine?" or
"I told you what I needed to be okay with this relationship. Now you tell me I can't have that because it would hurt her feelings??"

I was wondering about this because of some discussions we've had recently. I have an idea of how I would like to live in a polyamorous relationship, and more than once my ideas were questioned as being unrealistic. So I ask those of you who are living this now and have more experience with failure and success than I do. Is it an unrealistic expectation that all parties should be reasonably satisfied AND/OR happy with how things are to be successful?

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 12/27/2005 4:41:13 PM >

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RE: Poly Models - 12/27/2005 9:01:32 PM

Sylverdawn

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Yes all parties much be reasonable satisfied with the outcome of the relationship or tension, upset, resentment and anger will follow.. all which while healthy emotions are not necessarily productive.

When your problem with your husband becomes her problem she is merely a symptom of underlying issues in your own dynmaic. I am currently in a similar triad things have not always been smooth sailing. I am not sexually involved with the other partner but there is an emotional intimacy that binds us together. It is a difficult thing to balance but you simply must be able to talk about what you need from him and from her in a loving way and explain why you feel that things are not working for you.. what you have to be prepared for is that they may not hear what you have to say and you may have to say it several times over a period of time for things to be solved and that takes patience and comitment to the relationship and to your needs.

If in the end things cant worked out you have to be prepared and should have been prepared for how to end things in the event of. For example we have veto as primary partners meaning that if something simply is completly unworkable for the other we can use the veto.. that means we say NO... that can mean.. the other partner can say Bye.. There are consequences for your choices and playing with poly generally means they are costly.

My question is this how can her feelings be hurt if everyone was upfront about the status quo when you started??? That is a problem... if promises where made to you or her by a man who is looking for alternate lifestyle without dealing with the responsiblities of those choices Im afraid someone will pay the price for that.. generally that's not the man.!!!

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 12/27/2005 9:02:10 PM >

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RE: Poly Models - 12/28/2005 2:49:36 AM

MistressDREAD

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I am/was in a 27/16 year Triad with secondary partners.
(Both Primary Partners have passed on now but I still hold
the Poly Home together.)
Alpha Master/Mistress/Master-slaves of all three Primaries
both lifelong and short term.

There will always be issues of arrangement, unhappiness,
disagreements, and discontent that need be address by
all members concerned but if the relationship has a firm
foundation and beginning and such issues worked out
in how they will be handled from the most important life
issues such as ownerships of homes, insurance, children,
from onset and regardless of who is presented into the home
understands the rules all hold to, things can be worked out
and if not in the end there is the one who has final say in
the decision making, or at least in Our Triad there was and
if things could not be worked out by the primary group, when a
consensus cannot be gained will step in and say what it will be
and if any are not in agreement could step away. I can only
remember one situation where this actually happened in Our
relationship and it concerned a new slave being brought into
the home that had 3 children from several other relationships
who all had legal issues ( the kids got in trouble with the law )
and My self and the Master disagreed to include this slave into
Our home to give a negative influence over the children who were
already in the home. This slave was desired by the Alpha in
Our Home. He had three other lifeline slaves who also didn’t
desire to have their own children influenced by this slaves children
and made complaint. In the end We could not agree and at this
point the Alpha stepped in and dropped the addition of the slave
to Our Home as We could not come to any consensus on him.
And although it was not what the Alpha wanted, Our prior agreement
and arrangement held Him up to a higher position which He stood
in and made the right choice for the good of the Whole even against
His Own desires. I think this is what You tempt to address here. JMO

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RE: Poly Models - 12/28/2005 3:03:24 AM

MistressDREAD

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I would also like to add that Our Home was not just Poly but
BDSM, and Gorean in its application as well. And in My
experiance Siverdawn it was usually the Males who did make
the most sacrifices and be the first to give up Their desires
especially if in the Head of the Group and Home. JMO

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RE: Poly Models - 12/28/2005 5:53:26 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
To JohnWarren's point, I'm not talking about minor irritation, like "He bought her a pink scarf and got me a blue one. He knows pink is my favorite color!" That, IMO, is small stuff. I'm thinking more like,
"When I suggested we invest our savings, you said no. Five minutes later she suggested it and you agreed wholeheartedly. Why does her opnion seem to carry more weight than mine?" or
"I told you what I needed to be okay with this relationship. Now you tell me I can't have that because it would hurt her feelings??"

Those aren't the issues- those are the symptoms. The issues are that of priority, listening, feeling intimate and connecting.

Those are all very serious issues. What happens when you/he/she/whoever actually sits down with both of the others and says "I really feel diminished when I give an opinion and then you turn around and seem to give her/him/whoever a better voice than me"?

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RE: Poly Models - 12/28/2005 1:37:14 PM

LadiesBladewing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

Is it an unrealistic expectation that all parties should be reasonably satisfied AND/OR happy with how things are to be successful?

I think that people have a responsibility to look for their own satisfaction in life. If they aren't satisfied, or if something isn't working for them and nothing they've done to get it to work has helped, it may be time to let go of the situation. No matter the poly model, the satisfaction with the situation comes from the combined satisfaction of everyone involved... so if one person is not satisfied and fully engaged in the dynamic (not necessarily fully engaged with everyone IN the dynamic-- but fully committed to their own connections, at least), the overall satisfaction suffers, and everyone else finds that it is harder to be comfortable, secure and productive in that environment.

In a poly household, though, things get tangled -- especially if there is a legal tie that binds two of the members together, like marriage. The reason it gets messy is because sometimes, the solution is to walk away, and unfortunately, in many poly relationships there is this idea that, no matter what, the original marital relationship will be the one to survive. That just isn't the case. Any time a collective group shatters, there are a LOT of factors that go into which directions the pieces fly, and that's part of taking the responsibility for oneself and one's satisfaction with life... because one of the things that -has- to be weighed in all of this is "what if I say I don't want this any more, and they tell -me- to leave?" Then, it's up to that individual to take responsibility for his or her own peace-of-mind, and decide whether there is something else that xhe can try, or whether xhe's going to have to face the possibility that ending the relationship could go against the way xhe wants things to go.

Lady Zephyr

< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 12/28/2005 1:43:40 PM >

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