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Anne Rand - 7/22/2004 5:30:22 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1641
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Status: offline 		Or however you spell it. I'm a Libertarian and have been acused of being Randian, although I only know of her works second hand.

MizSuz, topcat, Berlin, go to it. I'm sure the peanut gallery will chime in.

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/22/2004 6:15:46 PM   
January


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Status: offline 		We don't appreciate Ayn Rand all that much.

January

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/22/2004 7:28:37 PM   
LadyBeckett


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Status: offline 		I believe that would be "Ayn Rand" and I have read "Atlas Shrugged" and "Fountainhead", as well as some of her lectures. I admire her from an artist's perspective, even while I disagree with her politically. I don't believe one has to agree with the opinion, to appreciate the creativity of the Artist.

I saw a profile on the other side not long ago, misquoting her. Actually, it was an excellent quote, which I don't remember off hand, but it wasn't her's. Although she's got some pretty good ones to her credit.

"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist.
Ayn Rand (1905 - 1982)"

I am soooooooo not fashionable!!!

What are the peanuts for??

< Message edited by LadyBeckett -- 7/22/2004 7:30:22 PM >

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/22/2004 7:58:54 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu
Or however you spell it. I'm a Libertarian and have been acused of being Randian, although I only know of her works second hand.


I've read just about everything she wrote, and although I am not an Obectivist, I have often been acused of being one.

There is a great Libetarian book titled It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand as her fiction contains some of the most readable arguments for self-reliance and rational self-interest. Lots of converts to the Libertarian way come by way of Anthem, The Fountainhead, and Atlas Shrugged.

In her favor, she defined a complete philosophy from scratch. Against her, her philosophy admitedly fails in "Lifeboat" stuations, which was the final straw for me.

I have a lot of respect for Objectivists. They believe in life over god. Self-interest over sacrifice. Logic over emotion. Whenever I get into a conversation with an Objectivst, I find we have far more in comman that in dispute.

Were you looking for anything in particular?

Oh, one more thing, she certainly gave her heroines a decidedly submissive streak, to the point of having them raped (and loving it) by the heros in her books, and she was quite the poly-kinkster in her own life...drama, drama, drama.

Yours,
Taggard

< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 7/22/2004 8:01:31 PM >

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/22/2004 8:52:57 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

I saw a profile on the other side not long ago, misquoting her. Actually, it was an excellent quote, which I don't remember off hand, but it wasn't her's. Although she's got some pretty good ones to her credit.


Lady Beckett...
Was it my quote You're speaking of? i quoted one of the characters in either "The Fountainhead" or "Atlas Shrugged" saying, "Words have an exact meaning." i don't think this is what You were referring to but just wanted to be sure. i definitely remember that statement and how it rang true in a peculiar way.

As for her philosophy, i think it has merit but runs into some problems in application. my overall feeling after reading Atlas Shrugged was the characters all seemed isolated from each other. The philosophy casts each of us as entities separate from our context (perhaps her notion of freedom). It seems to ignore the fact of experience and how it plays a role in shaping who we become over time.

anthrosub

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/22/2004 11:03:42 PM   
topcat


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While I must admit that Objectivism is actually not more flawed that any other philosophy I have studied, It annoys me more than most because it gives one an excuse for being a self-absorbed jackass.

I once was a writer for an objectivist literary jounal ("Fragments", now defunct) and I was basiclly the 'loyal opposition' to the Rand Band I had fallen in with. Oddly, I found them to be, without exception, some of the most other-foucused, compasionate, and warm people I have known, which made them very poor objectivists, IMO.

Rands writing was, IMO, exceed only by Poe's prose for lead pipe heaviness in making a point, and making it , and making it, and making it. Then, just in case you missed it, Her perfect specimen would stop the book to deliver a one hundred and twenty five or so page monologue explaining the underlying philiosophy. As I have a compulsion to finish anything I start reading, I would finish her books while screaming in pain, with blood running from my eyes.

Rand _DID_ write some great quotable bits, and some of her scene setting was simply brillant, but on a whole, she is best suited to inclusion as a specimen to illustrate what happens when you encourage a loony too much.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/23/2004 8:56:34 AM   
LadyBeckett


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Status: offline 		No, Anthro, it wasn't your profile. The quote the male used was a very good quote, and I really liked it, but it just wasn't her's (Ayn Rand's) . lol

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/23/2004 1:13:07 PM   
GoddessJules


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Status: offline 		OHHHHHHHH!!! I saw "Ayn Rand" and My haert went pitter patter. (I'm an armchair philosopher.)

As a recovered Randanista/Randroid. . .I can see the appeal some may have for her philosophy. I must credit Ms Rand for getting me into philosophy at all. I read her fictional and non fictional books VORACIOUSLY. . .and prima facie, she seems very original. . .and very "right." However, her bashings of certain philosophers made me very curious. . .and I started doing some investigating on my own. I was eager to read about this evil, shady character named Kant. BUT. . .as we all know. . .a neophyte will not be able to pick up a copy of The Critique of Pure Reason and get too much out of it. So starts the long journey.

To read Kant, I had to understand the basis of the empiricist vs rationalist rift. . .to understand that. . .I had to read the scholastics. . . to understand them. . .I had to read the Socratics. . .and so on. So the long, painful, chronological journey commenced. I have to thank her for that.

I found through my studies that 1) she wasn't that original. There isn't much in the way of philosophy that is orgininal, simply because philosophy is a dialog between the new school and the old. The newer philosophers answering what previous philosophers have said. 2) She wasn't entirely "accurate." Just as when an engineer watches the discovery channel and says. . ."Wow! They simplified that to the point of quasi-inaccuracy." Rand has done the same with her philosophy with good result because I don't know too many Rand followers that actually do their research and read up on the philosohers/philosophies that she bashes. Many times I've asked. . .where EXACTLY does Kant say that humans don't know anything? In the transcedental dialectic? Transcedental aesthetic? And all they can do is reapeat Rand.

As an aside. . .Randroids (bad Jules!) tend to be VERY dogmatic. . .and isn't that something Rand was against?

That was my $10.02

Cheers!

~Goddess~

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/23/2004 1:30:46 PM   
iwillserveu


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quote:

We don't appreciate Ayn Rand all that much.


Sorry, January, I gotta ask. Who is "we" or are you the queen of England?

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/23/2004 1:37:36 PM   
iwillserveu


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Status: offline 		Actually, no I'm not looking for anything in particular. I noticed MzBerlin, MizSuz, and Lawrence talking of her and I figured if they had a board they did not have to be affraid of going off topic on maybe I could read a bit.

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/23/2004 1:43:39 PM   
January


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Status: offline 		iwill,

That "we" is an attempt at an anthem joke. Anthem is one of the books written by ayn rand.

January

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/23/2004 1:47:34 PM   
iwillserveu


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Status: offline 		I've noticed Randians tend to be very dogmatic. When someone (ususally who I'm arguing with) call me "Randian" I think it is an insult. Although I have more of a penchant for reducto ad absurdum (or however you spell it) I think my arguing style is much more Socratic. (Hey if the logic leads to absurdity and it is their logic...)

Philosophy wise I got stuck in Neitzche. Most of the students at my Catholic college got stuck on Aquinas. (Oh before it starts, Neitzche had as much to do with Hitler as Marx with Stalin. Hitler just stole a few words.)

I never really embraced Kant so I can't really embrace anyone that came to argue with Kant. (BTW, did you see Monty Python's philosopher soccer match?)

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/23/2004 8:19:11 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu
BTW, did you see Monty Python's philosopher soccer match?


What about the Philospher's Song?

(I quote from memory and I was never quite sure of all the words)

Emmanual Kant was a real pissant
who was very rarely stable
Hidegger, Hidegger was a boozy begger
who could drink you under the table
David Hume could outconsume
Wilhem Friedrik Hagel
And Witgenstien was a beery swine
who was just as sloshed as Shlagel

There's nothing Nietche couldn't teach ya
bout the rasing of the wrist
Socretes himself was permanently pissed

John Stuart Mill of his own free will
on have a bottle of chianti was particulary ill
Plato they say could stick it away
half a dram of whiskey every day
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle
Hobbes was fond of his dram(?)
and Renny Descarts was a drunken fart
I drink therefore I am

Oh Socrates himself is particullarly missed
a lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed

G'day,
Bruce

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/24/2004 8:51:40 AM   
LadyBeckett


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From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		I now drink all beverages (at my desk) through a.....straw.

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/24/2004 8:58:44 AM   
MizSuz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: January

iwill,

That "we" is an attempt at an anthem joke. Anthem is one of the books written by ayn rand.

January



It's a very easy read and presents some interesting themes on lack of autonomy, although I've found that most folks think Fountainhead when you mention Rand. Atlas Shrugged I read at a friend's request and found it quite the chore to get through.

Her ideology is so entrenched in her works that I often found myself feeling as if I'd been beaten over the head with it by the time I got through the book. Anthem was a bit different, perhaps because it was so short and, comparatively, 'fluffy.'

I got the joke. ;)

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/24/2004 9:10:09 AM   
MizSuz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat


Rands writing was, IMO, exceed only by Poe's prose for lead pipe heaviness in making a point, and making it , and making it, and making it. Then, just in case you missed it, Her perfect specimen would stop the book to deliver a one hundred and twenty five or so page monologue explaining the underlying philiosophy. As I have a compulsion to finish anything I start reading, I would finish her books while screaming in pain, with blood running from my eyes.




quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz

Atlas Shrugged I read at a friend's request and found it quite the chore to get through.

Her ideology is so entrenched in her works that I often found myself feeling as if I'd been beaten over the head with it by the time I got through the book.



HAHA! I should have read the full thread before responding. Again, we mirror each other (although the blood running from the eyes analogy I really prefer!)

My recollection is that the 'John Galt' monologue was about 65 pages, perhaps it depends on the typesetting. Or maybe it just seemed like 150 pages! I first scanned the monologue, finished the book and then went back and read the monologue. I did not feel like I'd short changed myself doing it that way at all. In fact I felt like I could have gotten the entire story with only a few paragraphs from most of the chapters.

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/24/2004 9:59:49 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz
It's a very easy read and presents some interesting themes on lack of autonomy, although I've found that most folks think Fountainhead when you mention Rand. Atlas Shrugged I read at a friend's request and found it quite the chore to get through.


We the Living is, by far, my favorite Rand book. It was her first fiction book (iirc) and it is very well done without all of the 125 page speeches. It is also a pretty quick read and gives a rather interesting look at the Soviet Union immediately after the revolution.

Yours,
Taggard

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RE: Anne Rand - 7/24/2004 11:00:20 AM   
Sinergy


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Status: offline 		Hello,

While I never had the blood running from my eyes screaming in pain and torment from slogging through Ayn Rand's work, I found some of her philosophical arguments to be interesting. The blood running from my eyes belongs to The Tale of Genji, by Lady Murasake. 900+ pages of inconsequential trivia about life in the courts of Feudal Japan. A book where nothing happens. There is no relevant issue. There is no inner struggle. There is no quest for a deeper meaning. The book opens, time passes, the book ends. *runs away screaming* Douglas Adams writes about a civilization where every book written ends on a certain page. I was reading that and realized The Tale Of Genji originated on that planet.

In her defense, I tend to think some people are self-absorbed mindless twits, and some percentage of these people read Ayn Rand and realize they can pervert her work to The Dark Side of proving they are truly a Legend In Their Own Mind.

I read Patriotism by Yukio Mishima yesterday. A short read, but an incredibly powerful one, and has all sorts of underlying meaning to people involved in WIITWD. Not sure what that has to do with Ayn Rand, but since it is just me and I am probably wrong, there ya go.

Sinergy

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