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"No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 4:47:07 AM

Whipenrod

Posts: 56
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline

I have just had an encounter with a submissive who, when he first approached me, said he wanted to take me to 'an upscale place' and then named one of the best (and expensive) restaurants in the county.

I took the time to dress well, and wore my best jewlery and coat.
The restaurant is special--on a rocky mountain top with the most magnificent view of the New York skyline imaginable. Even without it being decorated for the holidays, the restaurant was opulant.
When we met, I was disappointed to see him tieless, with his shirt unbuttoned (I could see his undershirt). He was dressed in a suit otherwise. When I asked "Where is your tie?" He said that he'd 'been in business meetings all day.'

At that point I let the topic go. We had an enjoyable dinner and conversation, and he said he goes to the opera, so I think he knows how to dress. He also mentioned his 'need to serve.'
Now comes his follow-up letter, when he lavishes praise on the evening and me and wishes for future encounters. I have enough submissive males of my choosing at the moment, but am always looking for a standout. I was hoping this gentleman was one of those cases, and I would have thought someone would have made the extra effort to impress me--not just with a restaurant meal. I have analyzed this from several angles, including personality traits.

Which brings me to my question: How would each of you have handled the situation?
And, in the greater analysis--should/can a Domme be 'bought'--even a professional Domme?

Thank you all,
Lady Whipenrod

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"I can resist everything except temptation."
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Post #: 1

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 5:37:44 AM

Solaise

Posts: 29
Joined: 11/29/2004
Status: offline

You can be bought if you want to be bought, but as far as I'm concerned - rules are rules and I don't care HOW opulant a restaurant is, if he breaks them he's going to hear about it - with a paddle to his backside.

I'm not impressed by money. I'm impressed by a sub's sincerity, and the effort he makes to show me that he is sincere in his desire to submit. I think if I am 'bought' the entire experience is a failure.

(in reply to Whipenrod)

Post #: 2

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 6:20:03 AM

MsCameron

Posts: 130
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipenrod

I have just had an encounter with a submissive who, when he first approached me, said he wanted to take me to 'an upscale place' and then named one of the best (and expensive) restaurants in the county.
I took the time to dress well, and wore my best jewlery and coat.
The restaurant is special--on a rocky mountain top with the most magnificent view of the New York skyline imaginable. Even without it being decorated for the holidays, the restaurant was opulant.
When we met, I was disappointed to see him tieless, with his shirt unbuttoned (I could see his undershirt). He was dressed in a suit otherwise. When I asked "Where is your tie?" He said that he'd 'been in business meetings all day.'

Maybe he was in business meetings all day. These days a tie is an optional piece of clothing and unless the restaurant and/or you had a rule about wearing a tie (that he knew about) he really didn't do anything wrong.
The point is that he didn't live up to your expectations whatever that may have been. You feel he didn't go the extra distance in this regard. Did he impress you in other ways and if he didn't, you already have the answer.

quote:

At that point I let the topic go. We had an enjoyable dinner and conversation, and he said he goes to the opera, so I think he knows how to dress. He also mentioned his 'need to serve.'
Now comes his follow-up letter, when he lavishes praise on the evening and me and wishes for future encounters. I have enough submissive males of my choosing at the moment, but am always looking for a standout. I was hoping this gentleman was one of those cases, and I would have thought someone would have made the extra effort to impress me--not just with a restaurant meal. I have analyzed this from several angles, including personality traits.

Is it worth giving him the benefit of the doubt and giving him a second chance? Is it possible that he may be outstanding in other areas but may need a little training in formal attire?

quote:

Which brings me to my question: How would each of you have handled the situation?
And, in the greater analysis--should/can a Domme be 'bought'--even a professional Domme?

Good question. I think many people can be impressed by money or by being bought things but in the long run, it doesn't mean anything. It's never going to make up for chemistry or compatibility or even good service. If someone falls short in what you want, they fall short.

MsC

< Message edited by MsCameron -- 12/15/2004 6:21:58 AM >

_____________________________

I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out. Keep going, going...
Lateralis.Tool

(in reply to Whipenrod)

Post #: 3

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 6:33:35 AM

MaitresseEden

Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline

I think your being a bit too picky. Unless the resturant has a Tie requirement, then Ic an empathize with the desire to take it off. Furthermore, it would show me that he wan't to be relaxed and comfortable going into his meeting with you. Focus on the positives and not the negatives, Once he becomes yours.. should you choose him.. you can always tell him to wear one.

Ms. Eden

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to MsCameron)

Post #: 4

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 8:35:05 AM

MistressFire70

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

If him dressing in a specific way is important to you (and it seems that it is), tell him. Give him a specific "uniform" to wear the next time you go out and see 1) how well he obeys it and 2) if he complains about it all evening. If he is lax in obeying or whines all night, you have your answer. If he does both well, then you know he is just a little clueless and needs guidance.

There's lots who have suit/clothes fetishes! Look at how many are Victorian, Gorean, use role play costumes, sissy french maids, etc. you have to let your partner know how you feel about it.

Fire

< Message edited by MistressFire70 -- 12/16/2004 8:13:57 AM >

_____________________________

you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

(in reply to Whipenrod)

Post #: 5

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 1:28:25 PM

MistressMaamNH

Posts: 8
Joined: 8/11/2004
Status: offline

I am always specific about what I want a submissive to wear upon our first meeting. It varies according to the location of the meeting. (always public, of course) I do, however, understand your point about feeling you had made such an effort to put together a lovely presentation of yourself, only to have it seem you were not given as much attention from him. I am not quite sure where the "can a Domina be bought" comes from..do you mean in the sense, that you enjoyed being taken to such an "opulent" restaurant, so you would overlook any potential small faults, or was it something else? Back to My original thought, of being specific about what they will wear..I am also very specific of how I wish them to behave, what to say to whom, wait for My permission to eat/drink. But that is, of course, just My personal style, of setting up very clear boundries from the begining about protocol and behavior.

(in reply to Whipenrod)

Post #: 6

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 1:42:12 PM

MaitresseEden

Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

I am always specific about what I want a submissive to wear upon our first meeting. ....Back to My original thought, of being specific about what they will wear..I am also very specific of how I wish them to behave, what to say to whom, wait for My permission to eat/drink. But that is, of course, just My personal style, of setting up very clear boundries from the begining about protocol and behavior

Ok.. I'm not meaning to come across as disrespectful as I would seriously like to discuss this.. but what in the heck do you get out of micromanaging another persons life to that degree. From my perspective it is only making more work for Me. At what point do you relax and enjoy each other for the ways you compliment each other? You being Dom and he sub.. What happens one the days you don't feel like telling him what to eat/drink or wear? Does he Starve and go naked? I'm sorry but I just don't get it. Please lets discuss it. I see nothing wrong with stateing.. I like this and I expect that.. but having to constantly monitor and manage another person's life I don't get.. I don't seek another child.. but then that is just me..

Ms. Eden

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to MistressMaamNH)

Post #: 7

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 1:52:05 PM

gentlesubmissive

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline

Whipinrod, as a man who wrote to you hoping for a response a few weeks ago, I can only dream about what it was like for this man to be with you. Me thinks that he just didn't realize that it would sadden you not to be dressed in a manner that you wanted. You may want to consider telling him of your disappointment, and if he doesn't change that small trait, please, please, please give me the chance to. I'll dress in anyhting you'd like for the opportunity to have dinner with you.

(in reply to Whipenrod)

Post #: 8

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 2:19:56 PM

GoddessJules

Posts: 549
Status: offline

NH, I feel you 100000% on that. I too have a similar philosophy to yours. MY WAY MY WAY MY WAY. I make no qualms about being a despot. One of my middle eastern boys even jokes once (with severe consequences) that my name is Princess Saddam Hussein. LOL And for me, to micromanage is not hard work at all. Controlling what they eat is one of the EASIEST things to control. I buy the food at sams club or the dollar store so they eat exactly what I want them to. I have access to their online banking so I know if they are spending money on other foods. Do I think they are putting meals on their credit cards unbeknownst to me? Well. . .if they are. . .the credit card bill isn't getting paid because. . .I have access to the bank account

*WHY* in the hell would I "subject" myself to "all of this?" I don't feel I'm subjecting myself to "extra work" because I enjoy it. It stikes a chord in some part of my sadistic side. I thrive off of the life management that I have over my boys. For those that feel that it is "extra work" or "don't get it". . .it just isn't for them.

Jules

_____________________________

A pig's pussy is still pork, just like a bull's balls are still beef.
Click here to visit my site

(in reply to MistressMaamNH)

Post #: 9

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 4:54:07 PM

Whipenrod

Posts: 56
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline

To Ms Cameron & Maitress Eden

No, I didn't see it as being nit picky at all. This is not the place where people 'dress down'.
This was an interview. He was applying for a job--he wanted to be my sub. People do not 'dress down' for a job interview.
OR--this was an online relationship. He wanted to meet and impress me in person. He took me to a special place--then didn't bother with a tie.
Would you hire him?
Would you go out with him again?
He was not a dim-wit. he was highly intellegent.
I didn't think I had to tell a grown man how to dress under the circumstances--he invited me to that particular restaurant, setting the parameters himself.
Remember: I mentioned the missing tie to him. A better sub would have excused himself and gone out to his car to get the tie.
I saw it as a lack of respect. I also saw it as a 'test' (The origin of the 'bought' question)--a subtle way of controling the situation. Or a subtle rebellion.

Goddess Jules: If you have found subs who are totally integrated into your world, THAT is a feat. Some people actually want to/need to be 'managed'. More fun if it's a Domme ;)

Gentlesubmissive: The difficulty is in your very 'out-of-my-state' location.
Sorry--I prefer people in my area. Good luck otherwise.

Everyone: Thanks for the responses.

Lady Whipenrod

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"I can resist everything except temptation."
--Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

(in reply to GoddessJules)

Post #: 10

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 5:39:56 PM

GoddessJules

Posts: 549
Status: offline

Whipenrod,

I don't think that you were nit picking AT ALL. If those are *your* standards. . .then by god any male that wants to enter your realm should recognize and go up and beyond. As a matter of fact, he should have gone out and bought new underwear for such a momentous occassion. I'm glad to know that there are women out there that have expectations and standards. . .and not willing to just take on the next thing with a swinging dick that happens to walk by. Kudos. I would have been equally disgruntled if someone showed up not wearing attire that was up to my expectations.

Jules

_____________________________

A pig's pussy is still pork, just like a bull's balls are still beef.
Click here to visit my site

(in reply to Whipenrod)

Post #: 11

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/15/2004 10:05:45 PM

topcat

Posts: 1013
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Long Island
Status: offline

quote:

When we met, I was disappointed to see him tieless, with his shirt unbuttoned (I could see his undershirt). He was dressed in a suit otherwise. When I asked "Where is your tie?" He said that he'd 'been in business meetings all day.'

Milady A.-

I am of two minds on this. The firat is a basic level of social interaction.

If I wear a shirt, it is tucked in, If I wear trousers, I wear a belt. If I wear a suit, I wear a tie (though I may losen it once coffee is served). These are basic, grown up, how to dress yourself rules, and while I would make some allowances for a poor up bringing, it's ot likely that it was poorer than mine, and I have learned these things.

If the rest of his manners showed some level you found acceptable, I'd just make it clear that you had certain ideas concerning suits and ties, and if you found yourself enforcing them too often, drop him like a hot rock.

All that said, I find it abhorant that he did not offer to get his tie when you asked about it's absence. That would be more of an issue for me than it's lack.

stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to Whipenrod)

Post #: 12

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/16/2004 2:59:43 AM

MistressMaamNH

Posts: 8
Joined: 8/11/2004
Status: offline

I did not say that I "micromanage" every detail, every single moment. What I said was I set the tone of what My expectations are right from the very begining (if they can't handle it, best that I know that right upfront). There is balance in all that I do...there are some days where I manage every minute detail, because I enjoy having a sub feel completely powerless and have them willingly submit to that. Then there are other days, when I tell them they are free to do what they like-but never do they stray outside of the boundries I have set for them because I have been very clear from the very beginning what My expectations are. This is My style..and this IS what I find relaxing, and enjoyable, and fulfilling. If I haven't given him specific instructions on something..then he knows that I have allowed him that freedom of making his own choice. I don't Own stupid submissives..they aren't going to let themselves starve to death. (and if they did..My problem would be solved now wouldn't it? hehe)

(in reply to MaitresseEden)

Post #: 13

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/16/2004 3:49:53 AM

BeachMystress

Posts: 1291
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: South Bay (LA area), CA - Southern California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipenrod
When I asked "Where is your tie?" He said that he'd 'been in business meetings all day.'

I agree, he should have had his tie or taken care of getting it when asked. However, if it was something that truly mattered to you, you needed to speak up about it rather than let it bother you all evening. Communication is paramount in this lifestyle. A submissive wants to please. If you'd said that you'd prefer he'd wear his tie and he said no, that would be one thing. But you didn't make yourself clear. You made an ambiguous statement. He explained it. You didn't follow up with your requirement. They are not mind readers. Often, if they've never been formally trained in any type of protocol, they don't understand the importance that can be placed on something as simple as a tie. The fact that this man stood out in so many other ways sounds like he'd be worth training.

_____________________________

~Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*

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(in reply to Whipenrod)

Post #: 14

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/16/2004 8:00:16 AM

MsCameron

Posts: 130
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipenrod

To Ms Cameron & Maitress Eden
He wanted to meet and impress me in person. He took me to a special place--then didn't bother with a tie.
Would you hire him?
Would you go out with him again?
He was not a dim-wit. he was highly intellegent.
I didn't think I had to tell a grown man how to dress under the circumstances--he invited me to that particular restaurant, setting the parameters himself.
Remember: I mentioned the missing tie to him. A better sub would have excused himself and gone out to his car to get the tie.
I saw it as a lack of respect. I also saw it as a 'test' (The origin of the 'bought' question)--a subtle way of controling the situation. Or a subtle rebellion.

I didn't mean to imply that you were being nit picky. Your standards are just that, your standards. That's why I asked the following:

quote:

Is it worth giving him the benefit of the doubt and giving him a second chance? Is it possible that he may be outstanding in other areas but may need a little training in formal attire?

You are right. A better sub would have excused himself and got the tie.

MsC... who really wouldn't mind seeing Topcat in a tie :) Just a tie.

_____________________________

I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out. Keep going, going...
Lateralis.Tool

(in reply to Whipenrod)

Post #: 15

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/16/2004 8:07:16 AM

GoddessJules

Posts: 549
Status: offline

quote:

MsC... who really wouldn't mind seeing Topcat in a tie :) Just a tie.

As long as the tie isn't too long and covers any of his "bits."

_____________________________

A pig's pussy is still pork, just like a bull's balls are still beef.
Click here to visit my site

(in reply to BeachMystress)

Post #: 16

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/16/2004 8:24:46 AM

MistressFire70

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden
but what in the heck do you get out of micromanaging another persons life to that degree.
Ms. Eden

There are some people who are very process oriented. Others are outcome oriented. For example, suppose you tell your submissive to change the oil in your car (we are assuming he or she can do this without harming you car!). If you don't care that they take it off to Jiffy Lube, the you're outcome oriented. If you get mad because you told THEM to do it, then you're process oriented.

I have a good friend who has had a slave for 12 years. The biggest thing the slave used to get in trouble for is not following directions. The Lady, who is process oriented, would give her a list of things to do and expect her to perform them IN THAT ORDER. The slave, being outcome oriented, would do them in the order she found most efficient. The slave has now learned to ask, "Ma'am, would you like for me to do these things in the order in which you gave them, or do you wish for me to do them in the manner i feel is most efficient?"

Hope that helps.

Fire

_____________________________

you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

(in reply to MaitresseEden)

Post #: 17

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/16/2004 10:24:39 AM

MaitresseEden

Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline

Well by that that standard I would definitely say I am outcome orient.. but the problem is I am both.. If I specifically say.. "do it this way" then I want it done that way. I tend to be very matter of fact and blunt about stateing what I want and always make sure that if it is something specific I spell out the details and make the sub repeat them back to me so they are clear. On the other hand it is important to me that a submissive be capable of thinking for themself, and takes the iniative in pleasing me. I want him to be able to know me so well that he is able to anticipate my needs and meet them before I articulate them. That process is one of trial and error, hence I find it necessary to be forgiving at times.

I have to agree with Beach Mistress when she asked.. "Did you tell him to go put the tie on? clear communication is important. No one is "perfect" from the start. It takes time to learn what others expectations are. To use your oil change analogy, I am more likely to state: Change the oil in my car, I don't care how you get it done, but it need to be done by the end of day, than to just say.. "change the oil in my car". Again, it boils down to specifics.

I'm had subs who get so hung up on the process that the outcome never gets met, and others so worried about the outcome that they missed the finer points of detail in the process.. so it is a balance of the two that is needed.

I just value my time and hate to waste it on trival things that a grown adult should be capable of doing. I may say.. "you might think twice about what you eat tonight as I am planning to play with your ass" but the bottom line is that should he opt for the spicy food, he is the one that will suffer, and be punished. If he is so callous as to repeatedly defy my requests then I am better off without him.

Ms. Eden

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to MistressFire70)

Post #: 18

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/16/2004 2:17:57 PM

Moleculor

Posts: 182
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline

I know I'm sticking my nose into the "Ask Mistresses" section, but then again I'm not that great with rules.

My thought: I'm sorry, when did telepathy become a requirement for all male submissives? Did you make it explicitly clear that you had expectations like this? This guy apparently took you to a fancy restaurant, but because things weren't PERFECT on the very first try you're bothered by his lack of ability to read your mind? Sure, rectify the situation and let him know how you feel, but what I'm hearing here is a "*gasp!* How could he not KNOW I wanted things done this way? He did everything else I wanted, so surely he must have somehow known that I wanted him wearing a tie too!"

This guy has made no commitment to you, and from what I've read, you had no pre-negotiated rules pertaining to dress or behaviour. So why the expectation for perfection on his very first try?

If I'm misreading this somehow, apologies, but the requirement of people having telepathic powers is a pet peeve of mine.

< Message edited by Moleculor -- 12/16/2004 2:19:10 PM >

(in reply to MaitresseEden)

Post #: 19

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/16/2004 2:32:32 PM

EStrict

Posts: 730
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline

Honestly, I see this as a miscommunication, as much on your part as anyone elses. When he said why he didn't have a tie, if you did not make a comment about prefering one, how was he suppose to know you were disappointed? I acree with Moleculor. He is not a mind reader, and unless you told him specifically before the meeting that you had specific requirements, how would he know? He was clearly within the dress code of the place, and if he met their standards and this was a first meeting, how was he to know that he was breaking your standards?

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to Moleculor)

Post #: 20

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